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The First Book Club Meeting - the transcription

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Minami Kohime

Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:41 pm    Post subject: The First Book Club Meeting - the transcription Reply with quote


Yesterday we had such a wonderful time in our first meeting of the Aristasian Book Club! We discussed the introduction of "The Feminine Universe" and had very interesting questions and comments.

As Miss Yu had suggested before we began the meeting, here is a transcription of the text chat at Virchers. Since I was there all the time, I took the responsibility for making it available here at the Fora for the maids who could not attend it. I edited some parts, when Virchers notices popped up and when we had a little problem with my "sinking into the chair" episode. Except for that, the whole meeting is here, until the final Rayatis of the day.

I hope you enjoy the fruits of our first discussion!

P.S.: Whenever the speaker is "You", it means me, Minami Kohime.

[18:06] Mengxia Yumako: Shall we begin?
[18:07] Jullianna Juliesse: please!
[18:07] You: PLease, Yu-chei
[18:07] Mengxia Yumako: Who has an astoundingly thoughtful question to start us off?
[18:08] Mengxia Yumako: I notice that nobody posted their discussion questions in the Fora.
[18:08] Jullianna Juliesse: Yes, I have one.
[18:08] You: Oops, were we supposed to? Sorry, I guess I missed that part
[18:08] Mengxia Yumako: What is your question, Jiejie?
[18:08] Jullianna Juliesse: Given that Miss Trent relies upon the writings of Mr. Gueron,
[18:08] Mengxia Yumako: That is all right, Kohime-chei. You have had a busy week!
[18:09] Jullianna Juliesse: who as we may know embraced Hinduism in adult life,
[18:09] Jullianna Juliesse: what is the group's opinion about the compatibility between Hinduism and Christianity?
[18:09] Jullianna Juliesse: I'll throw that out for openers.
[18:10] Mengxia Yumako: The official Aristasian answer to that question would be that we need not worry about the compatibility between Hinduism and Christianity because we are Deanists and Filianists.
[18:10] Mengxia Yumako: However--
[18:11] Mengxia Yumako: It is helpful to remember that (to my knowledge) Hinduism does not regard its multitude of gods as separate beings in a pantheon like Greek and Roman mythology.
[18:11] Mengxia Yumako: They are different aspects of one Divine being, just as the Janyati are aspects of Dea.
[18:11] You: Every tradition do share the same basis in terms of iconography and philosophy.
[18:12] Jullianna Juliesse: But it does seem that Miss Trent rests her thesis on the ideas of perennial wisdom, which seem to be rooted in the hindu tradition. .
[18:12] You: Although Christianity is way "newer" than Hinduism.
[18:12] Mengxia Yumako: Ultimately, though, I do not think that one can be Christian and Hindu at the same time.
[18:13] Mengxia Yumako: (One can be Christian and Buddhist at the same time.)
[18:13] Jullianna Juliesse: I agree. I threw this out as an ice breaker. After reading the intro, I searched some of Miss Trent's primary sources.
[18:13] Mengxia Yumako: The Hindu idea of reincarnation and the cycle of the Ages is just not compatible with Christianity's view of the afterlife.
[18:13] You: I guess that the introduction has a self-explanatory part that says, although with different appearances, perennial truth is essentially the same in every tradition, be it Hinduism or Shamanism.
[18:14] Mengxia Yumako: I agree, Kohime-chei--Miss Trent writes about "societies...united by a single, essential Truth."
[18:14] Jullianna Juliesse: I was trying to get the "back story"on her sources.
[18:14] Mengxia Yumako: What did you find, Jiejie?
[18:15] You: Oh, I see now.
[18:15] Jullianna Juliesse: It was long, but it was a bio of Gueron. . .
[18:16] Jullianna Juliesse: Mr. Gueron had an interesting shift of beliefs in his lifetime.
[18:16] Jullianna Juliesse: Christian, Shaman, Hindu, Islam. . .
[18:17] Mengxia Yumako: Goodness, that is quite a variety!
[18:17] Jullianna Juliesse: What did you all think?
[18:18] Mengxia Yumako: I think that Miss Trent is trying to make the point that Truth runs through all religions and can unite aspects of them.
[18:18] You: I can feel a familiarity with my own experience.
[18:18] Mengxia Yumako: I agree with her.
[18:18] Mengxia Yumako: Since Truth must be framed in human terms, we will necessarily have an imperfect understanding of it.
[18:19] Jullianna Juliesse: Yes.
[18:19] Mengxia Yumako: (Of course, that raises the question of the Koran.)
[18:19] Mengxia Yumako: Thus accounting for the varying versions of "truth" between religions.
[18:20] Mengxia Yumako: It is very easy to find parallels in the teachings of all major world religions, though.
[18:20] Jullianna Juliesse: Yes, they all emphasize the same human values.
[18:21] You: Still, we can try to view this mutiplicity of version of the truth with the fact that we are always father from me most perfect forms of understanding teh Truth.
[18:21] You: Islam, Christianity, they are all faiths with no more than 2000 years of existence.
[18:22] Jullianna Juliesse: Or can we look at religion like language and varying dialects/
[18:23] Jullianna Juliesse: What is not to say the the perennial truth we believe Meimei is not just another dialect?
[18:23] Mengxia Yumako: I think that requires faith.
[18:24] Sushuri Madonna is Online
[18:24] You: I guess that it right, and from a traditional perspective, quite acceptable, I think.
[18:24] Jullianna Juliesse: But a dialect can be truth,
[18:24] Chat Range: Sushuri Madonna [2m]
[18:24] Mengxia Yumako: Rayati, Madonna-chei!
[18:24] You: Rayati, Sushuri-chei
[18:24] Jullianna Juliesse: Rayati, Angel!
[18:24] Sushuri Madonna: Rayati Yu-chei
[18:25] Sushuri Madonna: Rayati Kohime-chei
[18:25] Sushuri Madonna: Rayati dear Miss Julianna
[18:26] Sushuri Madonna: How are y'all?
[18:26] Mengxia Yumako: I am well, thank you!
[18:26] You: I am doing fine, thank you
[18:26] Jullianna Juliesse: Very well. We are diving into our discussion! You would be proud of us.
[18:26] Sushuri Madonna: Oh how lovely.
[18:27] Sushuri Madonna: Miss Poppy sends her apologies
[18:27] Mengxia Yumako: Is she having ordie trouble?
[18:27] You: Oh! Excuse me for a mome, please
[18:27] Sushuri Madonna: She will be here next week but her wife had already arranged for them to go to a concert
[18:27] Jullianna Juliesse: Yes.
[18:27] Sushuri Madonna: Of course
[18:27] Mengxia Yumako: Family time is important!
[18:27] Jullianna Juliesse: Have you any comments on the intro, Sushuri-chei?
[18:28] Sushuri Madonna: It is Baroque music - it sounds very lovely
[18:28] You: I am back now
[18:29] Sushuri Madonna: Oh gosh - what have we said already (very roughly)?
[18:29] Mengxia Yumako: Rayati!
[18:29] Jullianna Juliesse: Just jump in!
[18:29] Mengxia Yumako: We were talking about finding the Truth in different religions.
[18:29] Sushuri Madonna: Rayati again.
[18:29] You: Rayati again
[18:29] Jullianna Juliesse: Rayati!
[18:30] Mengxia Yumako: Well, I have a question!
[18:31] Jullianna Juliesse: yes!
[18:31] Sushuri Madonna: I guess the cardinal point of the introduction is that while accepting the classic Guénonian critique of th modern world (that is the post Renaissance world) Miss Trent also sees that world as being both necessary and valuable.
[18:31] Sushuri Madonna: Oh yes, Kohime-chei.
[18:32] Mengxia Yumako: Miss Trent writes "Are we, for example, to include the works of Beethoven, Mozart, Keats and Wordsworth, and even Michaelangelo among the "rejected elements"?...Indeed, we must."
[18:32] You: Me?
[18:32] Mengxia Yumako: What is the characteristic that makes these works (which are still "good and beautiful in their own right") ultimately rejected material?
[18:32] Sushuri Madonna: Oopsy - I meant Yu-chei
[18:32] Mengxia Yumako: Is it the attitude with which they were made? Or the time at which they were made?
[18:32] You: Ah, right!
[18:33] Tascha Klees is Online
[18:33] Sushuri Madonna: I think it needs to be seen in the light of the quotation
[18:33] Sushuri Madonna: . . . what characterises the final phase of a cycle is the exploitation of everything that has been neglected or rejected during the course of the preceding phases; and indeed this is precisely what is to be observed in modern civilisation, which only lives, so to speak, by things which previous civilisations found no use for.
[18:33] Jullianna Juliesse: I fouund that a startling statement.
[18:33] Sushuri Madonna: Rejected by previous civilizations - not necessarily by us
[18:34] Mengxia Yumako: Ah, I see!
[18:34] Jullianna Juliesse: What was rejected by previous civilizations that Mozart, Wordsworth, and Beethoven utilized? I am confused.
[18:35] Sushuri Madonna: Actually she is softening Guénon's critique without rejecting it.
[18:35] Mengxia Yumako: So, when Miss Trent speaks of "rejected elements", she is not speaking of things that WE reject.
[18:35] Sushuri Madonna: No.
[18:35] Sushuri Madonna: They are actually things that Guénon would seem to reject.
[18:35] Jullianna Juliesse: But what elements specifically?
[18:36] Sushuri Madonna: Because he sees the renaissance as a wholly degenerative movement.
[18:36] You: I guess that a silly example would be communications technology we use now and that a few decades ago weew not even thought of and, really, no one needed it.
[18:36] Sushuri Madonna: Specifically the move toward the rajasic.
[18:36] Jullianna Juliesse: What is rajasic?
[18:36] Chat Range: Tascha Klees [3m]
[18:36] You: Rayati, Miss Klees
[18:37] Mengxia Yumako: Rayati, Miss Klees!
[18:37] Jullianna Juliesse: Rayati, Miss Klees.
[18:37] Sushuri Madonna: Miss Trent puts forward the aristasian view that the fajasic, while necessarrily inferior, is legitimate.
[18:37] Sushuri Madonna: Rayati Miss Klees.
[18:37] Tascha Klees: Rayati Miss Kohime, Miss Juliesse, Miss Yu and Miss Madonna!
[18:37] Sushuri Madonna: Rajasic, I mean.
[18:38] Sushuri Madonna: On Miss Klees, you look so splendid!
[18:38] Mengxia Yumako: You do! You are a geiko!
[18:38] Jullianna Juliesse: Yes you do.
[18:39] Tascha Klees: Thank Miss Madonna. This is from that landmark I gave you where everything is free.
[18:39] You: Indeed, you are wonderful!
[18:39] Sushuri Madonna: WHat a wonderful place!
[18:43] Mengxia Yumako: Please do have a seat, Miss Klees!
[18:43] Mengxia Yumako: Yes, let us continue.
[18:43] You: Teehee! Let's continue, then
[18:43] Sushuri Madonna: Sadly you can't pull up a seat.
[18:44] Tascha Klees: what are you talking about?
[18:44] Sushuri Madonna: Well this is really the crux of the chapter and it gets explained more later in the book
[18:44] Jullianna Juliesse: Please tell us more!
[18:44] Sushuri Madonna: The modern position is that the Renaissance was an advance
[18:45] Sushuri Madonna: The Tellurian Traditionalist perspective, typified by Guénon is that it was a complete degenration.
[18:46] Jullianna Juliesse: How so?
[18:46] Sushuri Madonna: The Aristasian position, stated by Miss Trent is that it is the beginning of the Rajasic era
[18:46] Sushuri Madonna: Which is necessarily inferior to the earlier Sattwic era but is legitimate and necessary
[18:47] Sushuri Madonna: It is part of the world-cycle that we should descend into a more material and individualistic phase.
[18:47] Sushuri Madonna: So to take MIchaelangelo
[18:48] Sushuri Madonna: Pre-renaissance art depicted the Archetypes
[18:48] Sushuri Madonna: Renaissance art studieed perspective and mass
[18:48] Sushuri Madonna: It tries to imitate the physical reflections of the Archetypes - material things
[18:49] Sushuri Madonna: What Plato calls "making copies of copies"
[18:49] Sushuri Madonna: Traditionalists - and Plato was one - opposed this
[18:49] Sushuri Madonna: Miss Trent says it is a necessary part of the descent into matter.
[18:50] Sushuri Madonna: A phase of manifestation
[18:50] Sushuri Madonna: "the winter-fruits of the World-Cycle"
[18:50] You: Still Renaissance looks far more beautiful than art the way it is today.
[18:50] Sushuri Madonna: Yes because it faithfully reflects nature and is therefore depicting the Archetypes at second-hand.
[18:51] Jullianna Juliesse: But why must there be a descent?
[18:51] Sushuri Madonna: while "modern art" (ehich is better termed post-modern art) turns its back on the Archetypes.
[18:51] Sushuri Madonna: Creation itself is a descent.
[18:52] Sushuri Madonna: It allows a world in apparent separation from Dea.
[18:52] Jullianna Juliesse: Yes. . . she is who is not busy born is busy dying.
[18:52] Sushuri Madonna: Yes!
[18:52] Mengxia Yumako: Yes.
[18:52] Jullianna Juliesse: *busy being born.
[18:52] You: Wow, quite an impacting phrase!
[18:53] Sushuri Madonna: The process is one of progressively developing the horizontal plane while moving away from the vertical.
[18:53] Jullianna Juliesse: And I didn;t think of that myself. It is from a song by Mr. Bob Dylan.
[18:53] Chat Range: PhoebeJoya Pearl [3m]
[18:53] Sushuri Madonna: Rayati Miss Pearl
[18:53] Mengxia Yumako: Rayati, Miss Pearl!
[18:54] You: Rayati, Miss Pearl
[18:54] Tascha Klees: Rayati Miss Pearl
[18:54] You: Would you like to seat here by the table?
[18:54] Sushuri Madonna: An example Miss Trent gives later is of religions - they are purest at thepoint of their revelation
[18:54] Jullianna Juliesse: Rayati, Miss Pearl.
[18:54] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Rayati, Miss Klees.
[18:55] Mengxia Yumako: Please have a seat, Miss Pearl!
[18:55] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Rayati, Miss Yu.
[18:55] Sushuri Madonna: But they progressively develop their "horizontal" implications, so we get the civilization of Baghdad and Cordove or of Chartres Cathedral
[18:55] You: Please, seat here by the table
[18:55] Jullianna Juliesse: Miss Pearl or Miss Klees may have my seat. . . I am afraid I have to go to sleep.
[18:55] Sushuri Madonna: It is a necessary evolution
[18:56] You: Oh no, already?
[18:56] Mengxia Yumako: Rayati, Jiejie!
[18:56] Jullianna Juliesse: Yes, I have to get up early.
[18:56] Tascha Klees: Oh no!
[18:56] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Oh am I late?
[18:56] Mengxia Yumako: Sleep well!
[18:56] Sushuri Madonna: Oh Rayati MIss Julianna
[18:56] You: Rayati, Miss Juliesse, have a good night of sleep!
[18:56] Jullianna Juliesse: Thank you.
[18:56] Jullianna Juliesse: Rayati darlings, I love you all.
[18:56] Tascha Klees: Rayati Miss Juliesse
[18:56] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Rayati, Miss Juliesse
[18:56] Mengxia Yumako: Do not worry about it, Miss Pearl. Really we are just getting going.
[18:56] Jullianna Juliesse: I must get child settled in.
[18:57] Jullianna Juliesse: See y'all tommorow.
[18:57] Sushuri Madonna: Of course
[18:57] Jullianna Juliesse is Offline
[18:57] Sushuri Madonna: I am sorry I was late
[18:58] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Rayati, Miss Kohime.
[18:58] Mengxia Yumako: Perhaps we should move on to a question from Miss Pearl or Miss Klees?
[18:58] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Rayati, Miss Madonna.
[18:58] Sushuri Madonna: So the modern view of "evolution" of a civlization like the Christian or the Islamic is that it keeps getting "better"
[18:59] Tascha Klees: That technology makes things better.
[18:59] Sushuri Madonna: But the traditional view is that it is most perfect at the point of revelation and then develops all its lesser, "outward" aspects over time.
[19:00] Mengxia Yumako: It can be depressing to think that society is not continuing to get "better", but at the same time it would be very depressing to think that this physical world is as good as it gets.
[19:00] Sushuri Madonna: Yes, they become better from a material point of view which is why a material civilization sees them as simply "better".
[19:00] Sushuri Madonna: Yes!
[19:00] Tascha Klees: But spiritually it is sickening.
[19:01] Sushuri Madonna: We know that our mothers were wiser and greater than we - all traditional civilizations know that.
[19:01] You: Still, we do have needed "Fruits of Season" because of our condition of necessarily material beings, isn't it?
[19:01] Sushuri Madonna: Yes - each Age gives us what we need for that Age.
[19:01] Sushuri Madonna: Provided we do not abuse it.
[19:01] Mengxia Yumako: Yes. We are more dependent upon our physical bodies, so we need penicillin and heart transplants. Et cetera.
[19:01] You: We need medicine, we need technology, and although sometimes it isolates us and make us cold, still it works for the world the way it is today, I guess.
[19:02] Sushuri Madonna: Ages are not "good" or "bad" in themselves.
[19:02] Sushuri Madonna: Yes, exactly.
[19:02] Sushuri Madonna: And our way to Dea is much simpler, because we are simpler creatures.
[19:02] Mengxia Yumako: No one would argue that...say, a cure for breast cancer would be a bad thing! But our ancient mothers did not have that problem to worry about.
[19:02] Sushuri Madonna: But the spiritual Goal is as great as it ever was.
[19:03] You: the cure would be bad?
[19:03] Sushuri Madonna: Yes - we need the things our present civilization gives us because we are what we are.
[19:03] Mengxia Yumako: No, the cure would not be bad.
[19:03] Sushuri Madonna: We don't have to be ashamed of it. But we shouold not be arrogant about it either
[19:03] You: Ah, right.
[19:04] Mengxia Yumako: But it would be even better if the problem did not exist.
[19:04] Sushuri Madonna: Yes it would.
[19:04] You: But I guess not being arrogant is quite difficult, given that the ones who are ahead of these "discoveries" are very much driven by proud.
[19:05] You: And, as people see how fitting these discoveries are, they end up being dragged along in this pride, because the ones who have acess to these things are "better".
[19:05] Sushuri Madonna: Well it is the modern Tellurian attitude
[19:06] You: Of course, it is a cultural things, but still we are inserted in such cultures.
[19:06] Mengxia Yumako: Really, the inventors of these things SHOULD be proud of their accomplishments--but not excessively.
[19:06] Sushuri Madonna: In Aristasia we know that our achievements are not as high as those of our mothers
[19:06] Mengxia Yumako: And Telluria teaches excessive pride.
[19:06] Sushuri Madonna: We are a modern society without being "modernist"
[19:06] You: This is essentialy a masculine thing, I would say.
[19:07] Sushuri Madonna: We don't have the ideology of Modern Superiority.
[19:07] Tascha Klees: I would like to ask a question.
[19:07] Mengxia Yumako: Of course!
[19:07] Sushuri Madonna: Yes, of course.
[19:07] You: Of course, we have the chance to know of these things, yet there are people who can only see what the modern culture shows them, and so this pride perpetuates.
[19:07] You: Of course, Miss Klees
[19:08] Tascha Klees: How and why did patriarchial systems begin to take over?
[19:08] Sushuri Madonna: It seems to be because Masculi are more material the decline into materiality favored their ascendancy.
[19:09] Sushuri Madonna: I am not sure it was necessary to Telluria, but it did end up happening all over that world.
[19:09] You: So, in that sense, was patriarchy a necessary fruit for the world?
[19:09] You: Oh, I see
[19:09] Tascha Klees: Why did they find it neccessary to squash our spirits?
[19:09] Sushuri Madonna: In some cases quite independently - such as th eSouth Sea Islands
[19:09] Mengxia Yumako: Masculi are inherently destructive, I think.
[19:10] Mengxia Yumako: Even as children they play with toy weapons and the like.
[19:10] You: They do not seek harmony, but dominance over others.
[19:10] You: I have a very nice example of this!
[19:10] Sushuri Madonna: They are ruled by Sai Vikhe - and the masculine version of Sai Vikhe tends to be unbalanced
[19:10] You: Can I share it?
[19:10] Sushuri Madonna: Yes, please do.
[19:10] Tascha Klees: Haven't they been like that since there very beginning?
[19:11] Sushuri Madonna: Yes, I think so - but they were not always in control
[19:11] You: Once, when I was in high school, a very lovely blonde teacher once asked the class: "Let's divide the class into girls and boys. Boys, please read this sentence aloud, together".
[19:12] You: And the result was each of them speaking it in their own rhythm, all messed.
[19:12] You: Then it was the girls' turn. And we did it in unisson, without a single difficulty.
[19:12] You: Like we had rehearsed beforehand.
[19:12] Sushuri Madonna: Yes - the Mars-principle is the principle of discord
[19:13] You: The teacher smiled in a very tender way and, smartly, showed us how girls are more harmoninous than boys.
[19:13] Sushuri Madonna: The Venus principle of concord.
[19:13] Mengxia Yumako: That is a good example!
[19:13] Sushuri Madonna: It is!
[19:14] Tascha Klees: Our bodies also sync up together too when we live together.
[19:14] You: I have been remembering it quite often lately. It always brings a smile to my face when I do!
[19:14] Sushuri Madonna: Miss Trent cites Aristotle, whose theory of hylomorphism is the perfect complement to Plato;s theiry of the Archetypes
[19:14] Mengxia Yumako: Yes, that is true, Miss Klees.
[19:14] Sushuri Madonna: But Aristotle claimed to have refuted Platp
[19:14] Sushuri Madonna: Plato
[19:14] Sushuri Madonna: Actually the two theories belong together.
[19:15] Sushuri Madonna: But the discord principle even rules masculi philosophers
[19:15] You: But maybe they discorded because they are masculs. Teehee
[19:15] Sushuri Madonna: Yes.
[19:15] You: Yes!
[19:15] You: (It has already been twice. Should I say snap?)
[19:16] Sushuri Madonna: Yes - that is a snap
[19:16] Sushuri Madonna: Your pile!
[19:16] You: Thank you!
[19:16] Mengxia Yumako: Hee hee!
[19:17] Sushuri Madonna: I am so sorry I got here late - I was a bit feverish I am afraid.
[19:17] Tascha Klees: Oh no! How do you feel now?
[19:17] You: Oh, dear... but are you alright now?
[19:18] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Am sorry to hear that Miss Madonna.
[19:18] Sushuri Madonna: Well still a bit feverish, but not in pain.
[19:18] Sushuri Madonna: Thank you darlings.
[19:18] Tascha Klees: Should you be in bed?
[19:18] You: I hope you get well soon, Madonna-chei!
[19:18] Sushuri Madonna: I just feel a bit bad because of Miss Julianna
[19:18] Sushuri Madonna: Well - to tell you a secret
[19:18] PhoebeJoya Pearl: I misunderstood the times obviously.
[19:18] Sushuri Madonna: I AM in bed!
[19:19] Tascha Klees: Good girl!
[19:19] You: Teehee!
[19:19] Mengxia Yumako: Oh, you are bedinating?
[19:19] Mengxia Yumako: Hee hee!
[19:19] Sushuri Madonna: Yes.
[19:19] PhoebeJoya Pearl: giggles
[19:19] Tascha Klees: We are like a secret book she is reading.
[19:19] Sushuri Madonna: Yes.
[19:19] You: How exciting to think so!
[19:20] Sushuri Madonna: Well I lay down earlier this evening.
[19:20] Sushuri Madonna: I am so glad I did not miss it entirely - it is such a lovely meeting.
[19:20] Sushuri Madonna: thank you for thinking of it, Yu-chei.
[19:20] Tascha Klees: I have to admit I spent some of the day looking into to some of the things mentioned in the Introduction of this book.
[19:21] Sushuri Madonna: Oh that is GOOD.
[19:21] Mengxia Yumako: Yes, it is!
[19:21] Tascha Klees: I think what I have been most impressed with is Sophia Perennis.
[19:21] Sushuri Madonna: Oh yes - that is such an important concept.
[19:21] Tascha Klees: This is something that at this point I do understand
[19:22] Sushuri Madonna: There was a University based on the Sophia Perennis
[19:23] Tascha Klees: I understand the idea of the 3 Gunas. But it is not mentioned anywhere as 3 historical ages more as an example of spiritual development
[19:23] Sushuri Madonna: It is a structural thing like the four elements - it can be applied to the analysis of many things
[19:24] You: because the Sophia Perennis aplies to the macrocosm and the microcosm as well
[19:24] Sushuri Madonna: Yes, exactlly.
[19:25] Mengxia Yumako: I think Miss Klees was wondering where the University was.
[19:25] Sushuri Madonna: That really is the traditional approach - applying spiritual principles to the study of material things.
[19:26] Sushuri Madonna: Oh it was in Tehran
[19:26] Sushuri Madonna: The Imperia Iranian Academy of Philosophy
[19:26] Tascha Klees: Are you speak now of the 3 Gunas?
[19:26] Sushuri Madonna: It was sponsored by one of the Imperial Princesses
[19:26] Tascha Klees: How long ago?
[19:26] Sushuri Madonna: Sadly it was swept away by the revolution
[19:26] Sushuri Madonna: In the 70s I believe
[19:27] Sushuri Madonna: Its principal, Prof Seyyed Hossein Nasr is over here now, at MIT
[19:27] Sushuri Madonna: He - uh -had to leave Iran.
[19:28] You: Is he a philosopher working for technology?
[19:28] Sushuri Madonna: The revolutionaries did not like the idea that all traditions are valid.
[19:28] Sushuri Madonna: He does have a special interest in science and technology from a traditional perspective.
[19:29] Mengxia Yumako: "Science" as we know it used to be a branch of philosophy.
[19:29] You: Hooray! We need more people like him in the sciences, then!
[19:29] Sushuri Madonna: Yes, exactly.
[19:29] Mengxia Yumako: I have a book that discusses the "big bang" as it relates to Buddhist philosophy.
[19:30] You: Oh, how interesting! Do you have the name of this book?
[19:30] Sushuri Madonna: It certainly makes sense in terms of the Aristasian doctrine of manifestatin.
[19:30] Mengxia Yumako: I can't remember it off the top of my head. I don't have it with me. Let me think.
[19:30] Sushuri Madonna: That everything expands from the infinitesimal Center
[19:30] Sushuri Madonna: "the rim revolves but the center remains without motion"
[19:31] You: That infinetesimal being the uncaused and perfect principle
[19:31] Sushuri Madonna: Yes.
[19:31] Sushuri Madonna: Infinitesimal because, while She is the Cause of manifestation, She is not Herself manifest.
[19:32] Mengxia Yumako: "Looking In, Seeing Out: Consciousness and Cosmos" by Menas Kafatos.
[19:32] You: I recall Aristotle said something about this motionless and uncaused "start". Yet, we seem to forget what has already been said for the sake of re-discovering it with more material points of view.
[19:32] Sushuri Madonna: Yes
[19:32] You: Thank you, Yu-chei!
[19:32] Mengxia Yumako:
[19:33] Sushuri Madonna: and it is sometimes forgotten that whatever expanded from the Center had to be present in the Center, so it does not give a materialistic Explanation of Being
[19:34] Sushuri Madonna: From a materialist point of view it only pushes the problem backward without solving it.
[19:35] Mengxia Yumako: Yes.
[19:35] You: Indeed
[19:35] Mengxia Yumako: The materialists have gotten their theory of the "big bang" as far back as superstrings stretching into 'branes, but they cannot explain where the 'branes come from.
[19:35] You: I read that some scientists were studying a way to know what was before the Big Bang, being their first hypothesis the existence of a previous Universe.
[19:36] Sushuri Madonna: Which of course is what tradition teaches too
[19:36] Sushuri Madonna: The inbreathing and outbreathing of the Dark Mother
[19:36] You: Indeed. I was amused to see that scientists are finally rediscovering what the tradition has been saying for so long.
[19:37] Sushuri Madonna: Aristasian technics are based on a metaphysical understanding of reality
[19:37] You: Maybe they unconsciously - ot intellectually - know this is true. But they must prove it with numbers and experiments.
[19:37] Mengxia Yumako: I heard that archaeology originally began as an attempt to prove or disprove the authenticity of the Bible. That seems rather silly to me.
[19:37] Mengxia Yumako: Seeking material proof for spiritual things.
[19:38] Mengxia Yumako: It is the opposite of faith.
[19:38] Sushuri Madonna: Interestingly, this kind of science became very popular at the time of the Renaissance
[19:38] Sushuri Madonna: But the other kind won out
[19:38] Sushuri Madonna: I mean science based on spiritual principles
[19:40] Sushuri Madonna: The Bible cannot really be regarded on that level - after all, Genesis sounds as if it is about the creation of one planet when it is clearly about the creation of the universe.
[19:40] You: Yet Positivism remained.
[19:40] Mengxia Yumako: Have you any questions about the introduction of the book, Miss Pearl?
[19:41] Sushuri Madonna: It is talking of the macrocosm in terms of the microcosm.
[19:41] Mengxia Yumako: Exactly!
[19:42] Tascha Klees: Miss Pearl woke up in the middle of her night to be here with us.
[19:42] PhoebeJoya Pearl: I am totally lost Miss Yu, for I am trying to relate what is bing said to the introduction!1
[19:42] Tascha Klees: I am just astonished at her dedication
[19:42] Mengxia Yumako: We have gotten a little bit away from it--that's why I wanted to make sure that we addressed any questions you have!
[19:42] You: Did you have much trouble understanding th introduction, Miss Pearl? Maybe we can help
[19:43] Sushuri Madonna: Yes - thank you MIss Pearl - You really are splendid!
[19:44] PhoebeJoya Pearl: It seems to me it is much deeper then it presents and that maybe as the weeks go on maybe I will begin to gain a better understanding.
[19:44] PhoebeJoya Pearl: At least that is what I hope!
[19:44] Mengxia Yumako: I am certain you will!
[19:44] You: PLease, do not hesitate to ask whenever you feel like
[19:44] Sushuri Madonna: Yes -actually the restof the book does make the introduction clearer
[19:44] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Thank you all.
[19:45] You: I have one question, which might sound a bit unrelated, though.
[19:46] Sushuri Madonna: Of course, Kohime-chei
[19:46] Mengxia Yumako: Please ask it!
[19:46] Sushuri Madonna: (actually everything is related - that is the nature of traditional thought!)
[19:47] You: Not really a question, but I saw that all the quotations presented before the introduction were written by masculi. I have not gotten into researching about them, except for Mr Guenon and Mr Coomaraswamy,
[19:47] You: But isn't it interesting to see that the major names in this field are masculi?
[19:47] Sushuri Madonna: I wonder if we should study some of them at some point
[19:48] Tascha Klees: I would love to.
[19:48] Mengxia Yumako: I think that can be explained partially by the oppression of women's writings in Telluria.
[19:48] Sushuri Madonna: Well of course they are presenting the patriarchal tradition
[19:48] Mengxia Yumako: Masculi get more attention academically, no matter what the topic.
[19:48] Mengxia Yumako: Even today.
[19:48] Sushuri Madonna: They do
[19:48] Mengxia Yumako: And many femini tend to write about "feminism".
[19:49] You: That is sad.
[19:49] Tascha Klees: However Mr. Coomaraswami does recognize where all traditional societeis come from.
[19:49] Sushuri Madonna: I think Miss Trent was the first to look at Tradition from a feminine perspective
[19:49] You: That is what I found most fascinating
[19:49] Sushuri Madonna: Yes he does.
[19:50] You: You mean, in the form of a published book?
[19:50] Sushuri Madonna: He talked about it in his book A University Course on Indian Art
[19:51] You: No, I meant the fact that Miss Trent saw it first from a feminine perspective, I believe you meant she was the one to publish a book like that?
[19:51] Sushuri Madonna: It is not a major theme of his work. but at least he recognizes it rather than trying to deny it the way a lot of academics do.
[19:51] Sushuri Madonna: Oh yes!
[19:51] Sushuri Madonna: She was not the first ever
[19:51] Tascha Klees: Mr. Guenon wrote two books of interest "The Crisis of the Modern World" and The Reign of Quantity and the Signs of the Times"
[19:52] Sushuri Madonna: Just the first (as far as I know) to publish a book on it - as you say
[19:52] Tascha Klees: Theys speak directly to the problems of our pitified world today.
[19:52] Tascha Klees: They
[19:52] Sushuri Madonna: Yes they ar wonderful books
[19:52] You: Oh, but wasn't Mr. Guenon deceased before the 1960s?
[19:53] Tascha Klees: He died in 1051
[19:53] Tascha Klees: 1951
[19:53] Tascha Klees: 1886 to 1951
[19:54] Sushuri Madonna: He is really analysing the tendencies of the modern world as a whole
[19:54] You: Oh, well, I guess I am being too attached to definitions and forgot to see the descent as a gradual thing
[19:54] Sushuri Madonna: Not the Eclipse, obviously!
[19:54] You: Yes, that is what I just realised now. Teehee
[19:55] PhoebeJoya Pearl: May I also ask, what are the Fruits of the History Cycle?
[19:55] Sushuri Madonna: We might have to invite honored Raya if we read one of those.
[19:55] Mengxia Yumako: Yes.
[19:55] Tascha Klees: I would think that would be a wonderful idea.
[19:56] Mengxia Yumako: The fruits of the history cycle are the creations of each age in relation to that age.
[19:56] Sushuri Madonna: It means the things that come about as the cycle progresses - arts, music, architecture - all the things that come out of history
[19:56] Mengxia Yumako: (I think.)
[19:56] You: I havewritten a definition somewhere here...
[19:56] Sushuri Madonna: And technics too, of course
[19:57] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Oh thank you.
[19:57] You: I have written this when I first read the book. Would someone correct it if it's wrong?
[19:58] Sushuri Madonna: Oh yes.
[20:00] You: As the Hystorical Cycles happen, Humanity is driven further and further from the Divine. The end of each Cycle (in fact, I guess it is something shorter than the Cycles) is marked by "Winter Fruits", which are productions that reflect the increasing materialisation and, therefore, are genuine creations of a given phase of Time and make it possible for the next "lower" order to happen.
[20:00] Mengxia Yumako: That sounds correct to me!
[20:01] Tascha Klees: What would be a good example of Winter Fruits?
[20:01] Sushuri Madonna: Yes, I think so.
[20:01] Sushuri Madonna: Well Miss Trent talks about things like the Romantic movement
[20:01] Mengxia Yumako: Ladies, I am afraid I need to be getting to bed.
[20:01] You: Thank you, I can tick it as correct, then
[20:01] Sushuri Madonna: Yes!
[20:01] Mengxia Yumako: Thank you so much for this wonderful evening.
[20:02] Sushuri Madonna: Thank YOU , Yu-chei
[20:02] Sushuri Madonna: It was your inspiration
[20:02] Mengxia Yumako: I am afraid my late-night stamina is not very good--please continue without me!
[20:02] You: We had a wonderful time. Thanks for soming up with the idea, Yu-chei
[20:02] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Thank you Miss Yu
[20:02] Mengxia Yumako: I will announce the next reading at the Fora.
[20:02] Tascha Klees: Thank very much it was fantastic.
[20:02] Mengxia Yumako: Rayati! Good night!
[20:02] You: Rayati!
[20:02] Sushuri Madonna: Rayati dear Yu-chei
[20:02] Tascha Klees: Rayati
[20:02] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Rayati, Miss
[20:02] Sushuri Madonna: Sleep well
[20:03] You: Oh, I guess we can sit by the table too, now
[20:03] Sushuri Madonna: Yes
[20:04] You: But, then I have one more question about Winter Fruits.
[20:04] Sushuri Madonna: Oh of course
[20:04] Tascha Klees: So an example of Winter Fruits would be the Romantic Movement?
[20:05] You: Art Deco could be considered a Winter Fruit that reflects the increasing materialisation of the world, given that it was obviously an upward tendency?
[20:05] Sushuri Madonna: Yes, Miss Trent talks about that
[20:05] Sushuri Madonna: Yes it would be a winter fruit -
[20:05] Sushuri Madonna: I think the idea is that even when society is losing touch with its metaphysical roots
[20:06] Tascha Klees: Do Winter Fruits refer to artistic expression then?
[20:06] Sushuri Madonna: It can still find echpes of them that produce new and beautiful thiengs
[20:06] Sushuri Madonna: Not only - I think ordinators would be winter fruits too.
[20:07] Tascha Klees: Material manifestations
[20:07] Sushuri Madonna: Material or intellectual, yes
[20:07] Sushuri Madonna: Cultural
[20:07] You: I guess that all the human creations that is perpetuated and "evolved" are Winter Fruits, maybe?
[20:08] Sushuri Madonna: Yes - I don't know if the term would apply in Aristasia
[20:08] Sushuri Madonna: Because we did not lose touch wiht our fundamental principles
[20:09] Sushuri Madonna: On the other hand we are very individualist and materially oriented
[20:09] Sushuri Madonna: Compared to earlier ages.
[20:09] Sushuri Madonna: So maybe - I am not sure about that!
[20:09] You: Yet Aristasia is a better "tamasic" society than tellurians
[20:09] Tascha Klees: I was reading today about how the role of the artist in society has changed from earlier ages. I think you might have been discussing this when I arrived.
[20:10] Sushuri Madonna: Aristasia has not entered a tamasic phase.
[20:10] Tascha Klees: I don't wish to repeat
[20:10] Sushuri Madonna: It is still rajasic
[20:10] Sushuri Madonna: No I don't think so - do tell us.
[20:10] Tascha Klees: Is this spoken of in the introduction/
[20:10] You: Oh, I got confused with something I have read before, I probably mixed things up. Thank you!
[20:13] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Does it cover tamasic phase in the book?
[20:13] PhoebeJoya Pearl: I am unsure what that is?
[20:13] You: You will find that at the "Three Gunas in HIstory" Chapter
[20:13] Tascha Klees: I think it is going to be necessary for a better grasp of Hindu scriptures.
[20:13] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Thank you Miss Kohime
[20:13] Sushuri Madonna: yes - you can read that chapter or wait till we get to it
[20:13] Tascha Klees: I have a lot of homework to do.
[20:14] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Yes Miss
[20:15] You: Oh! It's already past midnight. I should go to bed as well
[20:15] You: Although it is nothing compared to the effort of Miss Pearl!
[20:16] Tascha Klees: Well I am very glad you came Miss Kohime!
[20:16] PhoebeJoya Pearl: We all make efforts in differing ways Miss Kohime
[20:16] You: Indeed we do, Miss Pearl
[20:16] Tascha Klees: You have said some very interesting things.
[20:16] You: I am very happy to participate in this lovely discussion!
[20:16] PhoebeJoya Pearl: it has been great to listen to You Miss Kohime
[20:16] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Thank you
[20:16] You: Hehe, when I got hold of this book, I went through it like an applr bug full of hunger
[20:17] PhoebeJoya Pearl: I can understand that feeling
[20:17] You: But I still have much to learn, so I shall be looking forward our future meetings!
[20:17] Sushuri Madonna: Oh yes
[20:17] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Me too!!
[20:17] You: Oh, and Miss Yu suggested that we save this chat for the ones who could not be present today.
[20:17] Sushuri Madonna: Yu-chei is such a wonderful Prafecta Studiorum
[20:18] Tascha Klees: She is!
[20:18] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Yes i thirdsies that
[20:18] Tascha Klees: I would like a copy of the part I missed also Miss Madonna.
[20:18] Sushuri Madonna: (I know sheisn't doing this in her officisal capacity - ut she is such a natural facilitator of education)
[20:18] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Me too
[20:18] You: I shall be saving the beginning of the chat.
[20:18] Sushuri Madonna: Oh yes
[20:18] You: The rest we can assemble later
[20:19] Sushuri Madonna: I wasn't here from the beginning
[20:19] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Thank you Miss Kohime
[20:19] Sushuri Madonna: So I should like a copy of the first part
[20:19] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Me too can it be put on the fora please
[20:19] Sushuri Madonna: Oh that is agood idea
[20:19] You: I shall send ot by notecard, since it has been a quite extensive chat
[20:20] You: Well, if it is fine, then it shall be in the Fora
[20:20] Tascha Klees: That would be lovely
[20:20] Sushuri Madonna: I think Kohime-chei is the onoy one who was here the whole time
[20:20] Sushuri Madonna: only
[20:20] Tascha Klees: Yes.
[20:20] You: I arrived quite early today. Thank Dea my ordie helped me this time.
[20:21] Sushuri Madonna: Oh good!
[20:21] Sushuri Madonna: You have had such bad luck often
[20:21] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Goodie I am so glad you were here
[20:21] You: Yes, but thankfully it is changing, heehee!
[20:21] Sushuri Madonna: Hoooray!
[20:21] You: I shall be sending this as soon as I cut out the moments before the discussion
[20:22] Tascha Klees: I will have to bid you all good evening.
[20:22] Sushuri Madonna: Thank you
[20:22] Tascha Klees: What a wonderful night it has been.
[20:22] You: Rayati all and have a wonderful night!
[20:22] Sushuri Madonna: Thank you for coming
[20:22] Tascha Klees: Rayati
[20:22] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Night Night Miss Klees lovely to see you again
[20:22] Sushuri Madonna: Rayati
[20:22] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Rayati,
[20:22] Sushuri Madonna: Oyasumi nasai
[20:22] Sushuri Madonna: Goodnight dear Miss Klees
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Chancandre Aquitaine

Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 63
Location: Nevrayapurh, Novarya

PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I may be allowed a few clarifications and notes. I am sure many of you were already aware of these things but some may find them a little helpful.

1 The Sophia Perennis is not based on Hinduism. Indeed the Renaissance scholars who popularized the term had scarcely heard of Hinduism and had a more Platonic basis. By definition, the Sophia Perennis is universal.

2 M. Guénon would not have seen himself as "changing religions" but simply as adopting such outward forms as best facilitated his adherence to Universal Truth at any given point in his life and work.

3. Hinduism and the classical/nordic pantheons derive ultimately from the same tradition. The classical and nordic worlds lacked the intellectual facility to adapt their tradition to the lesser mentality of the Iron Age, and so fell into the error of "polytheism". What is fascinating to note is that while the nordic branch failed from a lack of scholarly tradition and intellectual leadership, the Hellenic branch failed precisely because it was a prototype of the modern "humanist" mentality (which was eclipsed by Christian civilization and "reborn" at the Renaissance - which is why it is called the Renaissance, or "rebirth").

Classical "polytheism" (that is the error of multiple "gods") was, in other words, powered by the same fundamental error that powers the modern Darwinist Weltanschauung.

4 Hinduism is the only Tellurian "world religion" that has successfully adapted itself directly from the Primordial Tradition to continue in the late Iron Age - that is to say without a "new revelation". That is the main reason it is sometimes associated with the Sophia Perennis itself and why it often provides a helpful terminology for those who wish to discuss things from a Perennial viewpoint.

5 Déanism/Filianism are similar to Hinduism in that they are primordial and in Aristasia go back unbrokenly to the Primordial Tradition. Filianism is similar to Christianity in that it adopts the perspective of the salvific aspect of the divine as the Child of God. This long predates Christianity and was the basis of the Eleusinian Mysteries of Demeter and Persephone. The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is found in feminine religion throughout the world. In Tellurian usage this is generally known by the vulgarly "paganized" term "the triple-goddess".

PS - don't forget we have Divine Service today at noon PDT for the Day of Our Sovereign Lady.
In the East Sai Raya rose aloft
And rode across the skies,
And the rays that blest the golden West
Bade great Novarya arise.
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Mengxia Yu
Contributy supermaiden

Joined: 07 Feb 2008
Posts: 435
Location: Arkadya

PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the first part of the transcript from the second book discussion.

[18:14] Jullianna Juliesse: Should we start our talk?
[18:14] Mengxia Yumako: Yes, I think we should.
[18:15] Sushuri Madonna: Yes.
[18:15] Tascha Klees: I have made some notes to share.
[18:15] Mengxia Yumako: Goody! Let's hear them!
[18:15] Sushuri Madonna: Oh how lovely.
[18:15] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Listens to Miss Klees.
[18:15] Tascha Klees: Well I have put a couple of things on a notecard
[18:16] Sushuri Madonna: Excellent.
[18:16] Tascha Klees: The first is an early 20th century view of how things changed from a Matriarchy to Patrichary.
[18:16] Tascha Klees: But I think that there are errors in this thought.
[18:16] Tascha Klees: I would like to discuss that.
[18:17] Tascha Klees: Then there is a society in China near Tibet that is a Matriarchal society
[18:17] Jullianna Juliesse: Can you ellaborate?
[18:17] Jullianna Juliesse: on your first point.
[18:17] Tascha Klees: I would like to look at that and perhapes compare to our ideal society.
[18:18] Tascha Klees: I will give you each a notecard.
[18:18] Sushuri Madonna: Thank you
[18:18] Mengxia Yumako: Thank you.
[18:18] Jullianna Juliesse: Thank you.
[18:18] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Thank You Ma'am.
[18:19] Tascha Klees gave you The Feminine Universe Preface.
[18:20] Tascha Klees: this was the prevailing hypothesis. I disagree with it. What do you all think?
[18:20] Mengxia Yumako: I think that that hypothesis is like trying to reduce love to chemical reactions in the brain.
[18:20] Sushuri Madonna: I think it is essentially based on the Darwinist thesis - as all Marxism is
[18:21] Mengxia Yumako: It is far too simple.
[18:21] Tascha Klees: Yes exactly
[18:21] Mengxia Yumako: Certainly, parentage and children may be one of the reasons.
[18:21] Tascha Klees: I think people were as stupid as this person things.
[18:21] Tascha Klees: thinks
[18:21] Sushuri Madonna: The idea that early humans were nearly apes and therefore much more ignorant than we - rather than much wiser.
[18:22] Jullianna Juliesse: What made you link this with the Preface? I am trying to follow your train of through.
[18:22] Jullianna Juliesse: *thought
[18:22] Mengxia Yumako: This theory also removes a father's ability to care unconditionally for his offspring.
[18:22] Sushuri Madonna: It is a theory of matriarchy - but a very patriarchal one.
[18:22] Mengxia Yumako: It says that biology is the only reason that brunette parents care.
[18:23] Jullianna Juliesse: Miss Trent does not believe that "prehistoric" peoples were uncivilized, I do not think.
[18:23] Sushuri Madonna: The idea that matriarchy is based on "primitive ignorance"
[18:23] Tascha Klees: I have spent some time looking through what other "traditional" scholars believe is the "reason" for the change from Matriachy
[18:23] Tascha Klees: to Patriarcy.
[18:23] Tascha Klees: Sorry my spelling seems to be going downhill.
[18:24] Tascha Klees: I am facinated with these traditional female oriented societies how they worked how they were so much better than anything that followed.
[18:25] Tascha Klees: I wanted to truly looking into the qualities that made them better
[18:25] Tascha Klees: They were in fact more advanced than anything after that.
[18:25] Mengxia Yumako: Yes.
[18:25] Sushuri Madonna: Yes
[18:25] Jullianna Juliesse: I shall play devil's advocate though. . . do we have historical evidence of this? Altough I would agree, I would like to be able say this is true because of x, y, and z
[18:26] Mengxia Yumako: What sort of historical evidence do you mean, Jiejie?
[18:26] Mengxia Yumako: Buildings and artifacts?
[18:26] Jullianna Juliesse: Their social or political achievements as well.
[18:26] Sushuri Madonna: Well we know from the iconography that the feminine was central in these societies.
[18:26] Jullianna Juliesse: intellectual achievements, etc.
[18:26] Jullianna Juliesse: Yes.
[18:26] Tascha Klees: We not only have historical evidence we have a few contemporary Matriarchal societies. Please look at the one on the bottom half of this notecard for example.
[18:27] Jullianna Juliesse: But I wonder what made that so.
[18:27] Mengxia Yumako: Now that I think about it, I think that the lack of buildings left over from the matriarchal societies is proof of their superiority.
[18:27] Mengxia Yumako: They did not scar the land.
[18:27] Sushuri Madonna: We know from the architecture that they were advances
[18:27] Mengxia Yumako: So that their fingerprints are still around thousands of years later.
[18:27] Sushuri Madonna: ans we hav evidence that they were peaceful
[18:27] Tascha Klees: We have examples of their buildings.
[18:27] Jullianna Juliesse: That is an interesting way of looking at it!
[18:27] Tascha Klees: They had complex architecture
[18:28] Mengxia Yumako: Oh, yes--we know of their architecture, but we do not have whole buildings still in working order.
[18:28] Sushuri Madonna: from the absence of defensive fortifications ans weapons of war found in societies with male iconography
[18:28] Tascha Klees: But they were not the big monument builders.
[18:28] Tascha Klees: Thats sort of a male thing.
[18:28] Mengxia Yumako: Yes.
[18:28] Jullianna Juliesse: Well, that IS a boy thing!
[18:29] Tascha Klees: They lived in peace so their was no need for waring factions.
[18:29] Jullianna Juliesse: claim the ground and build a giant obelisk to let everyone know.
[18:29] Sushuri Madonna: They had remarkable buildings though - multi storey with fireplaces on all floors
[18:29] Mengxia Yumako: I remember reading something in a book called Ishmael.
[18:29] Mengxia Yumako: The author claimed to be talking about humanity, but really it was talking about patriarchy.
[18:29] Mengxia Yumako: It talked about masculi's need to conquer everything.
[18:29] Jullianna Juliesse: But I think Miss Klees is onto something. . . why did it fade?
[18:30] Mengxia Yumako: Conquer the uncharted land, conquer the sea.
[18:30] Mengxia Yumako: Conquer outer space. They phrase it like that for a reason.
[18:30] Jullianna Juliesse: How did they go from ancillary to primary.
[18:31] Tascha Klees: There are a thousand different theories. But we as a group have as good a chance as anyone to come up with some great notions as to why it faded.
[18:31] Sushuri Madonna: From the feminine essentialist point of view, it would be because the whole history of humanity is a descent into materiality.
[18:31] Jullianna Juliesse: Yes.
[18:31] Tascha Klees: One of the theories was famine caused by drought. The end of a peaceful agricultural society.
[18:31] Mengxia Yumako: I have thought of a fictional comparison, but it is streemly silly.
[18:31] Jullianna Juliesse: It was a gradual and insidious process, wasn't it?
[18:31] Sushuri Madonna: So the male sex, as the more material, becomes increasingly predominany as time goes on.
[18:31] Tascha Klees: I like the view the best.
[18:32] Tascha Klees: Miss Madonna.
[18:32] Sushuri Madonna: West Tellurian views in order to be "academically respectable" have to be based on material considerations rather than spiritual ones
[18:33] Mengxia Yumako: Isn't the world's population actually a slightly higher percentage of femini?
[18:33] Jullianna Juliesse: I think so.
[18:33] Sushuri Madonna: This in itself is a symptom of the decline into materiality which brought about patriarchy
[18:33] Mengxia Yumako: Telluria seems to have a history of a brute minority coming into power.
[18:33] Tascha Klees: More Masculi are born but more females survive to age 10
[18:34] Tascha Klees: So Miss Madonna do you see this as a purely spiritual process. The decline?
[18:34] Sushuri Madonna: According to some Aristasian thinking, masculi themselves are a relatively late developnment
[18:35] Sushuri Madonna: No - I think all historical processes are made up of both spirit
[18:35] Sushuri Madonna: ual and material components
[18:36] Sushuri Madonna: That is what history IS.
[18:36] Sushuri Madonna: The descent of the spirit into matter.
[18:36] Tascha Klees: How low can we go?
[18:36] Mengxia Yumako: I should think we can't get much lower.
[18:36] Sushuri Madonna: We don't really know that.
[18:37] Jullianna Juliesse: I do not think we personally have to go there.
[18:37] Mengxia Yumako: Society leans toward rejecting the spiritual altogether.
[18:37] Tascha Klees: At a certain point doesn't the spirit just crave to be free again?
[18:37] Mengxia Yumako: Atheism. Materialism.
[18:37] Sushuri Madonna: It does.
[18:37] Jullianna Juliesse: But society as a whole is another story.
[18:37] Tascha Klees: Marxism is total materialism
[18:37] Sushuri Madonna: Yes - there are always mitigating factors
[18:38] Sushuri Madonna: Engels, of course was Marx's collaborator.
[18:38] Mengxia Yumako: Yes.
[18:38] Sushuri Madonna: So his view of matriarchy is Marxist.
[18:38] Jullianna Juliesse: and therefore tainted?
[18:38] Tascha Klees: It is so hard to discuss our beliefs with a total materialist.
[18:38] Mengxia Yumako: From our point of view, yes.
[18:39] Jullianna Juliesse: I agree!
[18:39] Tascha Klees: I don't even know how to approach them in discussion.
[18:39] Mengxia Yumako: It seems to me that total materialists do not want to discuss beliefs.
[18:39] Mengxia Yumako: They want "facts".
[18:39] Jullianna Juliesse: yes
[18:39] Jullianna Juliesse: and data
[18:39] Tascha Klees: Well they ridicule the spirit.
[18:39] Mengxia Yumako: But the spiritual does not always leave evidence in the material.
[18:39] Mengxia Yumako: How sad that the world has actually become hostile to the spiritual.
[18:39] Jullianna Juliesse: It has.
[18:39] Mengxia Yumako: Tellurians do not just try to ignore the spiritual, they fight to destroy it.
[18:40] Jullianna Juliesse: And hostile to Amity.
[18:40] Mengxia Yumako: Take the cracked professor in Missouri, for example.
[18:40] Mengxia Yumako: Or maybe it was Minnesota.
[18:40] Sushuri Madonna: Which professor?
[18:40] Mengxia Yumako: I cannot remember its name.
[18:41] Mengxia Yumako: It could not leave spiritual people be.
[18:41] Mengxia Yumako: It defiled the Eucharist and the Koran publicly.
[18:41] Mengxia Yumako: This was an act of hate against spirituality.
[18:41] Sushuri Madonna: Oh how disgusting.
[18:41] Mengxia Yumako: The professor was not wronged or prompted to do this for some reason.
[18:42] Mengxia Yumako: It just felt that strongly about its atheism.
[18:42] Mengxia Yumako: I was devastated for months after witnessing it.
[18:42] Mengxia Yumako: It is still hard to think about, really.
[18:42] Sushuri Madonna: Oh poor darling.
[18:42] Sushuri Madonna: How perfectly horrible.
[18:42] Mengxia Yumako: And this is an educator.
[18:42] Mengxia Yumako: Doing such things.
[18:43] Jullianna Juliesse: Ladies, I am afraid I have to go now. I am sorry. . .
[18:43] Tascha Klees: I would feel absolutely dead if I didn't have the beauty that our spiritual life brings. In the beginning of our next chapter there is a quote b y Nietzsche which pretty much sums up the "modern" viewpoint. Nietzsche ended his life in an assilum
[18:43] Mengxia Yumako: Rayati, Jiejie! Have a nice night!
[18:43] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Rayati, Miss Juliesee.
[18:43] Jullianna Juliesse: But I am dreffly tired.
[18:43] Mengxia Yumako: You must tell me if you enjoy the kinnie!
[18:43] Tascha Klees: Rayati Miss Juliesse.
[18:43] Sushuri Madonna: Rayati dear Miss Julianna
[18:43] Sushuri Madonna: Do sleep well
[18:43] Jullianna Juliesse: I will, thank you Meimei!
[18:43] Jullianna Juliesse: Good night all. I love you!
[18:43] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Sweet Dreams Miss.
[18:44] Sushuri Madonna: Good night.
[18:44] Jullianna Juliesse: i am sorry to dash out. . .
[18:44] Jullianna Juliesse is Offline
[18:45] Mengxia Yumako: I am not surprised that Nietzche ended up in an asylum.
[18:46] Mengxia Yumako: It must be terribly depressing to live believing that there is nothing more to life than matter.
[18:46] Tascha Klees: How could he bear his own philosophy?
[18:46] Sushuri Madonna: Yes the Nietzsche quotation is very exact about the "official" modern view - though most people do not state it so openly.
[18:47] Sushuri Madonna: He was very spiritual as a child
[18:47] Tascha Klees: And yet lesser mortals go around spouting very similar ideas without much thought or sensitivity.
[18:47] Mengxia Yumako: I think that as they grow up, Tellurians are taught to forget how to believe.
[18:48] Mengxia Yumako: Since they cannot suspend disbelief, "art" must mirror the physical world as closely as possible, rather than Archetypes.
[18:48] Mengxia Yumako: Kinnies are more popular than books because the imagination stagnantes.
[18:48] Mengxia Yumako: *stagnates
[18:48] Mengxia Yumako: Children stop going to church once they reach college.
[18:48] Tascha Klees: this is such a true revelation to me!
[18:48] Sushuri Madonna: yes, that is probably trues.
[18:50] Mengxia Yumako: I am thinking of a quote...I cannot remember where it is from.
[18:50] Mengxia Yumako: Oh! Sir Terry Pratchett.
[18:50] Tascha Klees: Art must mirror the material world and become more material itself rather than be uplifting and honor archetypes.
[18:51] Mengxia Yumako: That children have to grow up believing in little lies like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny so that when they grow up, they can believe the big ones like truth and justice.
[18:51] Mengxia Yumako: Usually Mr. Pratchett is right on, but I disagree there.
[18:51] Mengxia Yumako: Just because one cannot grind the universe down and find a grain of truth doesn't mean that truth doesn't exist.
[18:51] Mengxia Yumako: I believe his point was that truth and justice will not exist unless we work toward them, though.
[18:52] Sushuri Madonna: Truth and justice are not lies.
[18:52] Mengxia Yumako: You're right; they are not.
[18:53] Mengxia Yumako: Atheists like to toss about the phrase "nothing is sacred".
[18:53] Mengxia Yumako: But they certainly hold that sacred.
[18:53] Mengxia Yumako: I don't understand it.
[18:53] Sushuri Madonna: They are very protective of their beliefs.
[18:54] Tascha Klees: They hang on to their materialism like a drowning rat
[18:54] Sushuri Madonna: They become quite emotional if anyone dares to question Darwin.
[18:54] Mengxia Yumako: Oh, yes--I remember our neighbour that one day.
[18:54] Sushuri Madonna: Yes!
[18:55] Tascha Klees: Oh yes!
[18:55] Mengxia Yumako: Here's a question--
[18:55] Sushuri Madonna: I was thinking of her.
[18:55] Mengxia Yumako: If emotions are just chemical reactions, if they are not to be trusted, et cetera, why do the robots in Tellurian fiction always want to become human?
[18:55] Mengxia Yumako: I have a song about it on my ordinator that always makes me cry, in fact.
[18:56] Mengxia Yumako: "If I just could be more human I would see every little thing with a gleam in my eye...will I cry when it's all over? When I die will I see heaven?"
[18:57] Mengxia Yumako: I wonder if secretly, these people doubt their anti-spiritual beliefs more than they want to admit.
[18:58] Sushuri Madonna: Oh I think they must.
[18:58] Sushuri Madonna: Or they would not feel so worried when they are questioned.
[18:58] Sushuri Madonna: Or take that professor
[18:59] Tascha Klees: Perhaps its just an intellectual facade of sorts and they say the mantra so to speak because they believe that that is what others expect of them. And they don't want to look stupid to others even thought they may actually deep down feel differently.
[18:59] Sushuri Madonna: We engage in rational discussion - but we have no desire to attack or defile atheists.
[18:59] Mengxia Yumako: Yes.
[18:59] Tascha Klees: It is an interesting contrast.
[19:00] Sushuri Madonna: Why would they be so hostile if they were not troubled?
[19:00] Mengxia Yumako: That is a good point!
[19:00] Tascha Klees: How could we really threaten them?
[19:00] Tascha Klees: So I think you both are right
[19:01] Mengxia Yumako: They have forgotten how to believe, so the thought of learning something so important all over again must be terrifying.
[19:01] Tascha Klees: I am so very sorry but I am being called to an island council meeting. I would much rather stay here, believe me.
[19:02] Mengxia Yumako: Rayati, Miss Klees!
[19:02] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Oh Miss Klees!
[19:02] Tascha Klees: I do hope to see you all tomorrow.
[19:02] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Rayati, Miss Klees
[19:02] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Have a great evening.
[19:02] Mengxia Yumako: I hope your meeting goes well!
[19:02] Tascha Klees: Rayati Miss Pearl, Miss Yu, Miss Madonna!
[19:02] Sushuri Madonna: Rayati Miss Klees
[19:02] Sushuri Madonna: I am glad you could come
[19:03] Sushuri Madonna: ooops
[19:03] Sushuri Madonna: too late.
[19:04] Mengxia Yumako: You know, one could also look to the karyukai for an example of a society ruled by femini.
[19:04] Mengxia Yumako: Masculine children are not treated badly or kicked out, but there is not much of a place for them, either.
[19:04] Mengxia Yumako: And it is definitely femin-centric.
[19:04] Sushuri Madonna: Where are they?
[19:05] Adele Poppy is Online
[19:05] Mengxia Yumako: The flower-and-willow world--the geisha world.
[19:05] Mengxia Yumako: That is the impression I got after reading Miss Liza Dalby's "Geisha" and another geisha's autobiography.
[19:06] Mengxia Yumako: Miss Mineko Iwasaki.
[19:06] Mengxia Yumako: It took me a minute to recall her name.
[19:06] Mengxia Yumako: Rayati, Miss Skytower!
[19:06] Sushuri Madonna: Rayati miss Skytower
[19:07] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Rayati, Miss Skytower!
[19:07] Rosemund Skytower: Rayati Misses Yumako and Madonna.
[19:07] Sushuri Madonna: This is actually the terrace of Sai Thamë College
[19:08] Sushuri Madonna: Welcome and do please have a seat
[19:08] Sushuri Madonna: Are you new to Aristasia?
[19:09] Mengxia Yumako: Rayati, Miss Poppy!
[19:09] Rosemund Skytower: Yes, I've not been here before.
[19:09] Sushuri Madonna: Rayati Aderu-sama
[19:09] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Rayati, Miss Poppy!
[19:10] Rosemund Skytower: Rayati, Miss Poppy.
[19:10] Sushuri Madonna: Do have my seat, ma'am
[19:11] Sushuri Madonna: What brings you to Aristasia, Miss Skytower?
[19:11] Sushuri Madonna: Have you read much about us
[19:11] Sushuri Madonna: ?
[19:12] Sushuri Madonna: I love your speckles, Aderu-sama
[19:12] Sushuri Madonna: dreffly bookish and approprieate
[19:12] Rosemund Skytower: I have read some, yes.
[19:12] Mengxia Yumako: Oh, yes!
[19:13] Sushuri Madonna: What is it that attracted you to Aristasia?
[19:13] Rosemund Skytower: From what I have read, it seems like a very beautiful place, that appreciates that beauty in its ladies.
[19:14] Sushuri Madonna: Oh definitely!
[19:15] Rosemund Skytower: I found it via a Mother God sister site.
[19:15] Adele Poppy: So sorry, ladies. Rayati. I have very bad lag.
[19:15] Mengxia Yumako: Poor Miss Poppy!
[19:16] Mengxia Yumako: How lovely, Miss Skytower!
[19:16] Sushuri Madonna: Poor Miss Poppy
[19:16] Sushuri Madonna: That is lovely
[19:16] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Am sorry to hear that Miss Poppy.
[19:16] Adele Poppy: How do you do, Miss Skytower?
[19:17] Rosemund Skytower: Very well thank you, Miss Poppy.
[19:18] PhoebeJoya Pearl: OOps read that as leg not lag!!
[19:18] Mengxia Yumako: Hee!
[19:18] Sushuri Madonna: Oh dear
[19:18] Mengxia Yumako: Did you have any questions about the preface, Miss Pearl?
[19:18] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Hee Hee
[19:19] Sushuri Madonna: a very bad leg
[19:19] Rosemund Skytower: Sorry, does anyone know how to alter the name portion above the heads?
[19:19] Sushuri Madonna: we were discussing this chaper, Miss Skytower
[19:19] Sushuri Madonna:
[19:20] Sushuri Madonna: You need to make the group active whose title you want
[19:20] Mengxia Yumako: Go to Edit/Groups.
[19:20] Sushuri Madonna: Are you a member of White Roses?
[19:20] Rosemund Skytower: Ohhhh.
[19:20] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Well I felt I understood what the preface was about generally, however since coming here tonight, I feel yet again there is so much more, that I have no idea about Miss Yu.
[19:20] Rosemund Skytower: No, first time visitor.
[19:21] Rosemund Skytower: Thank you.
[19:22] Sushuri Madonna: Thank YOU
[19:23] Sushuri Madonna: Did you have any questions, Miss Skytower
[19:24] Rosemund Skytower: Not just yet. I am a subscriber to the newsletter and check the site often, so I have some sense of things. The specifics of places and periods I need to review.
[19:24] Sushuri Madonna: Yes, I see.
[19:24] Mengxia Yumako: You will pick those up as you go along, I am sure!
[19:25] Sushuri Madonna: Yes - One learns a lot from just being around
[19:25] Sushuri Madonna: But do feel free to ask anything at any time
[19:26] Sushuri Madonna: Have you been to the Fora?
[19:26] Rosemund Skytower: No, I haven't. Where is that?
[19:27] Sushuri Madonna:
[19:27] Sushuri Madonna: It is where a lot of our chatter takes place
[19:28] Adele Poppy: Oh, it is a treasure trove.
[19:28] Rosemund Skytower: Thank you. I find this all so interesting.
[19:28] PhoebeJoya Pearl: What is the newsletter?
[19:28] Sushuri Madonna: Oh good
[19:30] Sushuri Madonna: The Chapel Newsletter, I think.
[19:30] Rosemund Skytower:
[19:31] Adele Poppy: The Mother God site, Miss Pearl.
[19:31] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Yes Ma'am thank you.
[19:32] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Have we finished the book club for now?
[19:32] Mengxia Yumako: I think we have.
[19:32] Mengxia Yumako: Unless someone has something else she would like to discuss?
[19:33] Sushuri Madonna: I was going to raise tha matter of an intemorphic Telllurian pre-history
[19:33] Mengxia Yumako: Please do!
[19:33] Sushuri Madonna: But I am thinking that might be a bit much
[19:34] Sushuri Madonna: Just really commenting that a point of view very opposite to the materialist one
[19:34] Rosemund Skytower: As mentioned on amazon-intel?
[19:34] Sushuri Madonna: Yes - exactly.
[19:35] Sushuri Madonna: Is not the Marxist idea that matriarchy was the product of ignorant near-apes
[19:35] Sushuri Madonna: But was the very end of what had been an intemorphic civilization.
[19:36] Sushuri Madonna: Actually the histories at amazon-intel give a very vivid picture of the end of matriarchyy
[19:36] Sushuri Madonna: or rather of its near-end which was averted
[19:38] Sushuri Madonna: This is harking back to the conversation before Miss Poppy and Miss Skytower arrived
[19:38] Sushuri Madonna: When Miss Juliessse and Miss Klees were here
[19:38] Sushuri Madonna: So we are a rather different group now!
[19:38] Mengxia Yumako: Stroo!
[19:38] Mengxia Yumako: I am going to copy and past the conversation into the Fora.
[19:39] Sushuri Madonna: But we were talking about the end or matriarchy
[19:39] Sushuri Madonna: Oh good.
[19:39] Rosemund Skytower: I thought Marx saw matriarchy as a primitive form of communism?
[19:39] Sushuri Madonna: Yes.
[19:39] Sushuri Madonna: But based on ignorance of procreation.
[19:39] Mengxia Yumako: But matriarchy was actually not primitive at all.
[19:40] Rosemund Skytower: I don't know about the ape assessment. I was given to think he based it on the idea that women were forced out of their roles by industry of men and monogamous relationships.
[19:40] Sushuri Madonna: Well not in the Darwinist sense of "primitive" which is the only one people use these days.
[19:41] Sushuri Madonna: Yes.
[19:41] Sushuri Madonna: This was supposed to have started with the "reallization" of the male role in procreation.
[19:42] Rosemund Skytower: Ah alright, I saw primitive and near-apes, and thought Darwin.
[19:42] Sushuri Madonna: Well the Marxist view of history is predicated on Darwinism
[19:43] Sushuri Madonna: Marx wanted to dedicate Das Kapital to Darwin.
[19:43] Sushuri Madonna: And rightly so.
[19:44] Rosemund Skytower: I'm processing.
[19:45] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Please excuse me, am going to return to my slumber.
[19:45] Mengxia Yumako: I'm afraid I need to be going too.
[19:45] Mengxia Yumako: I'm still terribly tired.
[19:45] Rosemund Skytower: Goodnight Miss Pearl, Miss Yumako.
[19:45] Sushuri Madonna: Of course Miss Pearl and Yu-chei
[19:45] Mengxia Yumako: Rayati!
[19:45] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Rayati!
[19:45] Sushuri Madonna: Rayati darlings.
[19:45] Mengxia Yumako: If you are going to continue the discussion, will someone post it to the Fora?
Sai Saraswati Public Library: Your on-the-ground library in Telluria.
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Splendid Contributor

Joined: 31 Jul 2008
Posts: 162
Location: Quirinelle and Culveria

PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for posting this, Yu-chei. It is helpful to reread our discussions. I am sorry I became sleepy so suddenly. The Restful Blend really worked wonders! THank you for sending it.

Miss Juliesse
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Mengxia Yu
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Joined: 07 Feb 2008
Posts: 435
Location: Arkadya

PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the transcript from the discussion of Chapter One.

[18:05] Mengxia Yumako: Let's go.
[18:05] Mati Kira: Earth in the center with concentric spheres
[18:05] Mati Kira: Yes
[18:05] Jullianna Juliesse: I recall that slide from Ren Lit.
[18:05] Mati Kira: Now I have been looking but been unable to locate a picture of it for us tonight.
[18:05] Mengxia Yumako: Is it something like this?
[18:05] Mengxia Yumako:
[18:06] Mati Kira: Yes Miss Yu. You are a marvel!
[18:06] Jullianna Juliesse: That would be the one. . . Copernicus' view.
[18:06] Mati Kira: But this was in color and had a figure standing below on the ground
[18:06] Jullianna Juliesse: I do not have a question to start, but a thought that may provoke discussion. May I?
[18:07] Mati Kira: Please!
[18:07] Mengxia Yumako: Go right ahead!
[18:07] Jullianna Juliesse: I put a note in my margin after reading Mr. Nietsche's quote: "It is hard not to feel superior as an Aristasian if this is the modern view."
[18:07] Jullianna Juliesse: Whether that was good or bad of me to say, at least we can start by talking about the modern view.
[18:08] Mengxia Yumako: Well, Aristasians ARE superior!
[18:08] Mati Kira: What I feel is an overwhelming sense of pity for all the maids trapped in this void of thought.
[18:08] Mengxia Yumako: The trick is to treat Tellurians justly despite it.
[18:08] Jullianna Juliesse: yes, but it is not good to feel superior to others.
[18:08] Mati Kira: Pity or should I say pitty?
[18:08] Mengxia Yumako: Hee hee!
[18:08] Jullianna Juliesse: hee!
[18:09] Mengxia Yumako: I think that a good Aristasian knows she is superior, but she does not feel CONTEMPT for Tellurians.
[18:09] Jullianna Juliesse: I suppose pity and prayer are required.
[18:09] Mengxia Yumako: Rather, as Miss Klees pointed out, she feels pity.
[18:09] Mati Kira: In preparing for this evening I went and visited the Atheistic Embassy in Virtualia
[18:09] Mengxia Yumako: Oh, that must have been difficult!
[18:09] Jullianna Juliesse: Oh no. . . there is such a place!
[18:09] Mati Kira: I want to see first hand what was going on.
[18:10] Mati Kira: Oh yes! It was horrid.
[18:10] Mengxia Yumako: You are so brave.
[18:10] Mati Kira: Poor sad people.
[18:10] Jullianna Juliesse: Oh yes.
[18:10] Mati Kira: Angry people actually.
[18:10] Jullianna Juliesse: What goings on were there?
[18:10] Mengxia Yumako: It must be very depressing to abide only by the modern view.
[18:10] Jullianna Juliesse: Yes, those are the people I pray for.
[18:10] Mati Kira: They behave as a religious sect.
[18:11] Mati Kira: They try and "convert" others to their viewpoint.
[18:11] Jullianna Juliesse: So they have "religious-ized" their non-relgious views
[18:11] Mati Kira: I have watched them in action several times.
[18:11] Mengxia Yumako: Yes, it is a religion just as the others are. Even though they think they are not.
[18:11] Jullianna Juliesse: That must be a tendency of humanity.
[18:11] Mati Kira: Yes. And by the way they do feel "superior"
[18:11] Jullianna Juliesse: Did you try to debate them?
[18:11] Mati Kira: Do you remember that Maid who came to the Embassy in an unusual outfit.
[18:11] Mengxia Yumako: They are the happy pigs, while we are the miserable Socrates, if you remember the quote.
[18:12] Jullianna Juliesse: Yes.
[18:12] Mengxia Yumako: Yes, I remember her.
[18:12] Mati Kira: She was one of them.
[18:12] Mengxia Yumako: Ah, the Church of Darwin.
[18:12] Mati Kira: Poor sad creature.
[18:12] Mengxia Yumako: Actually, I do believe there is hope for the modern view.
[18:12] Mengxia Yumako: Because the very most cutting-edge modern view deals with things like string theory.
[18:12] Jullianna Juliesse: But I find comfort in the fact that I am a mini-Cosmos, even if I am a small part of it.
[18:13] Mengxia Yumako: And the very most cutting-edge modern view is finding ways that it parallels the spiritual.
[18:13] Mengxia Yumako: In looking for a unified theory, I think scientists are finding ways to incorporate traditional views into the modern view.
[18:13] Mati Kira: I don't know where you are going with this exactly but I do think science is bringing us around slowly to the view that we here at this table have.
[18:13] Jullianna Juliesse: Yes. Sub-atomic therories mirror this. Everything is a type of something else, which is actually a very pre modern way of seeing things.
[18:13] Mati Kira: Yes!
[18:13] Mengxia Yumako: That was my point exactly, Miss Klees.
[18:14] Mengxia Yumako: That book that I mentioned before, "Looking In, Seeing Out", for example.
[18:14] Jullianna Juliesse: As humans, we are a type of the divine. We are a mini Cosmos.
[18:15] Jullianna Juliesse: Atoms at the particle level mirror humanity's relationship to the divine.
[18:15] Mati Kira: Yes so true.
[18:15] Mengxia Yumako: Hmm. Just as atoms can become many things depending on their relationships with other atoms, so too can Maid become many things depending on her relationships with others.
[18:15] Mengxia Yumako: A chlorine atom can be salt, or it can be poison.
[18:16] Mengxia Yumako: A maid can be loving, or she can poison relationships.
[18:16] Jullianna Juliesse: I can reconcile science to faith in this way. Scientists are not only unlocking their theories; they are also proving and unlocking the workings of Dea.
[18:16] Mengxia Yumako: (It's sodium and chlorine that make salt, right?)
[18:16] Jullianna Juliesse: I failed Chem!
[18:16] Mati Kira: Last time I had Chem was 7th grade!
[18:16] Jullianna Juliesse: Mr. Hawking's works are actually quite spiritual if read in that mindset.
[18:16] Mengxia Yumako: I'll just hope I'm right, then!
[18:17] Mengxia Yumako: There is nothing wrong with needing the physical to make comparisons in order to understand the spiritual.
[18:17] Jullianna Juliesse: We won't try it at home. Promise!
[18:17] Mengxia Yumako: That is just how some people's minds work.
[18:17] Mengxia Yumako: Heee!
[18:17] Mengxia Yumako: I remember being impressed with Mr. Hawking, though I have not read anything by him in a loooong time.
[18:17] Sushuri Madonna is Online
[18:17] Jullianna Juliesse: But I think people believe that they must separate scientific thinking from spiritual.
[18:18] Mati Kira: I was really interested in the traditional view of the cosmos. Its spiritual and may I say physical ramifications.
[18:18] Sushuri Madonna: Thank you
[18:18] Mengxia Yumako: Rayati, darling shroomy!
[18:18] Mengxia Yumako: How are you feeling?
[18:18] Jullianna Juliesse: Rayati Sushuri-Shroom!
[18:18] Mati Kira: Rayati Miss Madonna
[18:18] Sushuri Madonna: Rayati Yu-chei Rayati Miss Juliesse
[18:18] Sushuri Madonna: RAyati Miss Kira
[18:18] Jullianna Juliesse: Please join us at the table, darling.
[18:19] Mengxia Yumako: Miss Kira is Miss Klees in a different body.
[18:19] Sushuri Madonna: How lovely to meet you
[18:19] Sushuri Madonna: Oh!
[18:19] Jullianna Juliesse: We saved a seat for you, and it is nice and warm.
[18:19] Sushuri Madonna: Thank y;ou
[18:19] Mati Kira: It is so nice to see you!
[18:19] Sushuri Madonna: Miss Poppy should be here shortly
[18:19] Sushuri Madonna: I am sorry to be late.
[18:19] Mati Kira: Oh lovely!
[18:19] Mengxia Yumako: We were talking about the traditional view of the universe, and ways that the most modern sciences are finding to incorporate it.
[18:19] Jullianna Juliesse: Oh good.
[18:19] Mengxia Yumako: Don't worry about being late!
[18:19] Jullianna Juliesse: We just got started.
[18:20] Sushuri Madonna: Oh wonderful
[18:20] Mengxia Yumako: Miss Klees was very brave and went to the Atheist Embassy to do research.
[18:20] Jullianna Juliesse: I do agree that the modern view, if not absorbed properly, does make a maid lose a sense of her own worth.
[18:20] Jullianna Juliesse: Which leads to other more pernicious things.
[18:21] Sushuri Madonna: REally? there is an atheist embassy?
[18:21] Mengxia Yumako: There is a quote from my Astronomy textbook that I really liked.
[18:21] Jullianna Juliesse: Oh, you saw the notes!
[18:21] Mengxia Yumako: "We are all made of stardust."
[18:21] Jullianna Juliesse: You must not go there!
[18:21] Mati Kira: I think the traditional universe is the one that fits with our own cosmic makeup.
[18:21] Mengxia Yumako: It was only speaking of the physical--that our atoms likely come from the atoms of old stars.
[18:21] Sushuri Madonna: I shan't, ma'am.
[18:21] Mengxia Yumako: But it is so nice and whimsical.
[18:21] Mati Kira: We respond to the movement of the moon and stars
[18:22] Mati Kira: Both spiritually and physically
[18:22] Mengxia Yumako: And we come from the same place as the stars.
[18:22] Sushuri Madonna: Yes, we do.
[18:22] Jullianna Juliesse: ANd I like the fact that the traditional view was not originally intended to be scientific.
[18:22] Mengxia Yumako: And that reminds me of a song my parents listen to on the radio.
[18:22] Jullianna Juliesse: There is an old song. . . "We are stardust, we are golden, we are billion year old carbon. . . and we want to get ourselves back to the garden."
[18:22] Jullianna Juliesse: Yessy!
[18:22] Mati Kira: And who is to say that the outer universe doesn't just represent the more inner and true universe?
[18:23] Mengxia Yumako: It goes something like "I put the stars in the sky and taught them how to shine. You are mine, and you shine for me too. I love you."
[18:23] Mengxia Yumako: The speaker being Dea.
[18:23] Sushuri Madonna: WEll the use of "science" for a discipline that restricts itself by definition to the material is itself a piece of propaganda.
[18:23] Mengxia Yumako: After all, philosophy used to be considered a science!
[18:24] Mengxia Yumako: Different use of the word science, though.
[18:24] Sushuri Madonna: It is like saying "human" to mean the inhabitants of one nation\
[18:24] Jullianna Juliesse: I received a science credit a university for philosophy!
[18:24] Mengxia Yumako: At least universities make distinctions--hard sciences, social sciences.
[18:24] Sushuri Madonna: Science means "vision" or "knowledge"
[18:24] Jullianna Juliesse: (anything not to take chemistry)
[18:24] Mati Kira: Ah Miss Juliesse!
[18:24] Mati Kira: A maid after my own heart!
[18:25] Mengxia Yumako: That's why I took Astronomy!
[18:25] Jullianna Juliesse: Yes, a literature and art history girl.
[18:25] Jullianna Juliesse: I took geology for the other.
[18:25] Mati Kira: And we love you for it!
[18:25] Mengxia Yumako: Me too!!
[18:25] Mengxia Yumako: We really are sisters.
[18:25] Jullianna Juliesse: Until they made me crawl around caves.
[18:25] Mengxia Yumako: I took environmental geology. We took a tour of the city's drainage system.
[18:25] Jullianna Juliesse: Yes, we are cut from the same mold, I think.
[18:26] Mati Kira: Oh no!
[18:26] Sushuri Madonna: What does the pink panther say crawlling around caves?
[18:26] Mati Kira: I suffer claustraphobia!
[18:26] Jullianna Juliesse: I wore my new leather boots on the field trip and refused to go in the cave, so I received an F for the lab.
[18:26] Mati Kira: A true blonde!
[18:26] Sushuri Madonna: Spelunk. spelunk, - spelunk spelunk spelunk - etc
[18:27] Jullianna Juliesse: (groannnn!)
[18:27] Mengxia Yumako: Heee!
[18:27] Mengxia Yumako: Here is something I find disturbing.
[18:27] Mengxia Yumako: About the modern viewpoint.
[18:28] Jullianna Juliesse: What is that?
[18:28] Mengxia Yumako: The claim that the physical universe has NO center.
[18:28] Sushuri Madonna: Hmm
[18:28] Jullianna Juliesse: Yes, it just keeps expanding endlessly.
[18:28] Mengxia Yumako: From no particular point.
[18:28] Jullianna Juliesse: There are no "hard edges" so to speak.
[18:28] Sushuri Madonna: But surely the big bang took place somewhere?
[18:28] Mati Kira: That defies even basic logic.
[18:28] Mengxia Yumako: At least the heliocentric view of the universe has metaphysical meaning.
[18:29] Mengxia Yumako: Yes--shouldn't it be expanding from whatever banged?
[18:29] Mengxia Yumako: My Astronomy textbook kept coughing up the "raisin bread" model.
[18:29] Mengxia Yumako: The things in the universe are raisins in the bread.
[18:29] Mengxia Yumako: The bread part is the space between planets and things.
[18:29] Jullianna Juliesse: Do you think that is why we have seceded and created those hard edges?
[18:29] Mengxia Yumako: The raisin bread expands as it bakes, but not from one particular point.
[18:30] Jullianna Juliesse: That is disturbing.
[18:30] Adele Poppy is Online
[18:30] Sushuri Madonna: Hmm
[18:30] Mengxia Yumako: I wonder--do they REALLY think that the universe has no center, or have they just not found it yet?
[18:30] Mengxia Yumako: And needed some sort of answer?
[18:30] Sushuri Madonna: But that is because it was fairly large to start with
[18:30] Mati Kira: We who put the bread and raisins in the oven?
[18:30] Mati Kira: well
[18:30] Jullianna Juliesse: Dea
[18:30] Mati Kira: Thank you
[18:31] Mengxia Yumako: Exactly!
[18:31] Mengxia Yumako: Who stretched the 'branes so that they poinked together and banged, starting the universe? Dea.
[18:31] Jullianna Juliesse: There is a divine order, and our understanding is human. We are but a type of Dea but cannot understand her perfectly.
[18:31] Mati Kira: If you jump into a movie in the very middle it might be easy to say there is no beginning.
[18:31] Mengxia Yumako: Rayati, Miss Poppy!
[18:31] Sushuri Madonna: the raisin bread has a known origin in things other tahn raisin bread
[18:32] Jullianna Juliesse: Rayati, Miss Poppy.
[18:32] Mati Kira: Rayati Miss Poppy
[18:32] Mengxia Yumako: Oh dear--I have just found a relevant opportunity to quote Robert Jordan.
[18:32] Mengxia Yumako: Groan!
[18:32] Sushuri Madonna: Rayati Aderu-sama
[18:32] Adele Poppy: Rayati darlings
[18:32] Adele Poppy: I apologize for being so late.
[18:32] Mengxia Yumako: Not at all, Miss Poppy!
[18:32] Mati Kira: Miss Poppy please take this chair here.
[18:32] Jullianna Juliesse: Oh, we are just so glad to see you.
[18:32] Mengxia Yumako: As much as I hate to admit it, Mr. Robert Jordan starts all his books with a very relevant observation.
[18:32] Adele Poppy: Thank you Miss Kira.
[18:33] Mengxia Yumako: "In ___, a wind blew. The wind was not the beginning, but it was A beginning."
[18:33] Mati Kira: Lovely!
[18:33] Sushuri Madonna: Miss Kira is a close relation of Miss Klees
[18:33] Adele Poppy: It is a very great pleasure to meet you darling.
[18:33] Mati Kira: A younger relation.
[18:33] Adele Poppy: You must give my regards to Miss Klees.
[18:33] Jullianna Juliesse: But most charming!
[18:33] Mati Kira: Thank Ma'am the please I assure you is mine.
[18:34] Mati Kira: pleasure
[18:34] Adele Poppy: Such a polite little thing.
[18:34] Jullianna Juliesse: Where did Miss Liebling wander off to?
[18:34] Sushuri Madonna: I offered her a port
[18:34] Jullianna Juliesse: So did I.
[18:35] Mengxia Yumako: Rayati, Miss Liebling!
[18:35] Sushuri Madonna: Rayati Miss Liebling
[18:35] Jullianna Juliesse: Rayati, Miss Liebling.
[18:35] Beatrice Liebling: Rayati girls.
[18:35] Mati Kira: Rayati Miss Liebling!
[18:35] Adele Poppy: Rayati darling.
[18:35] Mengxia Yumako: Ughhhh! My roomies have some loud mascul over in the living room.
[18:35] Jullianna Juliesse: It is nice to see you
[18:35] Mengxia Yumako: Good thing I locked my door.
[18:35] Sushuri Madonna: Please have my seat. moes
[18:35] Sushuri Madonna: miss
[18:35] Beatrice Liebling: Thank you darling.
[18:36] Adele Poppy: Do sit girls
[18:36] Sushuri Madonna: Oh how painful
[18:36] Jullianna Juliesse: Miss Madonna, would you like mine, so all the full scholars can be at table?
[18:36] Mengxia Yumako: Oh, what a nice little bench!
[18:36] Mengxia Yumako: How clever!
[18:36] Adele Poppy: It's for the little 'uns
[18:36] Jullianna Juliesse: Please, I insist.
[18:37] Sushuri Madonna: I am fine here, ma
[18:37] Sushuri Madonna: am
[18:37] Jullianna Juliesse: All right.
[18:38] Mati Kira: Mengxia Yumako: "In ___, a wind blew. The wind was not the beginning, but it was A beginning."
[18:38] Mati Kira: That was the last thing said.
[18:38] Mati Kira: Beautiful saying.
[18:38] Mengxia Yumako: The ___ gets filled in differently depending on what book you're on.
[18:38] Sushuri Madonna: It is.
[18:38] Mengxia Yumako: Different places around the world.
[18:38] Adele Poppy: Are we discussing Chapter 2?
[18:38] Sushuri Madonna: Oh really!
[18:38] Mengxia Yumako: Chapter one.
[18:39] Sushuri Madonna: The wind was a beginning in Mary Poppins
[18:39] Sushuri Madonna: And in "The Wind on the Moon"
[18:39] Adele Poppy: And the comical "It was a dark and stormy night" opening is known by all.
[18:39] Mengxia Yumako: Which philosopher was it who thought that everything in the world was made out of air?
[18:39] Jullianna Juliesse: I thought it was interesting that Mr. Nietzche went mad.
[18:39] Mengxia Yumako: Earth being solid air, water liquid air, and fire rarefied air.
[18:40] Sushuri Madonna: One of the pre-Socratics, I think
[18:40] Jullianna Juliesse: But it does not surprise me given its view of the Cosmos.
[18:40] Mengxia Yumako: Air is also the number-one most basic need of a human body.
[18:40] Jullianna Juliesse: Then water.
[18:40] Mengxia Yumako: Well, apart from Dea, that is.
[18:40] Sushuri Madonna: But it is a precursor to the modern view because it leaves out the fifth element
[18:40] Mengxia Yumako: No Dea, die immediately. No air, die in a few minutes.
[18:41] Mengxia Yumako: Yes, that is right.
[18:41] Adele Poppy: I had a discussion once about the similarities between air and water; they are both made of the same molecules, yet we wouldn't drown in air the way we wouldn in water.
[18:41] Jullianna Juliesse: But fish drown in air.
[18:41] Mengxia Yumako: Not all fish!
[18:41] Jullianna Juliesse: No?
[18:41] Sushuri Madonna: But one could make a case for each element and that would be similar to a view of the world accordint to each of the four estates
[18:41] Mengxia Yumako: Bettas need air.
[18:42] Sushuri Madonna: Even so, fish would die without the oxygen in the water
[18:43] Mengxia Yumako: And that oxygen comes from air.
[18:43] Mengxia Yumako: That is why fish tanks need bubblers.
[18:43] Jullianna Juliesse: Dea is our bubbler.
[18:44] Adele Poppy: And our water, and the tank.
[18:44] Jullianna Juliesse: Or did she create the water and the tank?
[18:44] Mengxia Yumako: We are all donuts, and Dea is the donut hole that fills in the middle.
[18:44] Jullianna Juliesse: And stay on to bubble?
[18:44] Mati Kira: May I ask how everyone would define evil? Lack of Dea? or something else?
[18:45] Mengxia Yumako: Lack of good, just as darkness is a lack of light.
[18:45] Jullianna Juliesse: Evil is turning away from Dea and her ways.
[18:45] Mengxia Yumako: Of course, Dea is goodness.
[18:45] Jullianna Juliesse: We are all created in her image, even the evil ones.
[18:46] Jullianna Juliesse: One must make a conscious decision to reject her.
[18:46] Mati Kira: Is evil a "thing" or a void or lack?
[18:46] Mengxia Yumako: It is a void.
[18:46] Sushuri Madonna: Yes evil is privatio boni - lack of the good
[18:46] Adele Poppy: And even then we are reconciled with Dea in the end, all beings and all things.
[18:46] Jullianna Juliesse: But is ther not an element of choice involved? We were all created with free will.
[18:46] Sushuri Madonna: It is like cold, which can seem very real and powerful, but is actually only lack of warmth
[18:47] Adele Poppy: There is no evil so bad that She can't, or won't, make right.
[18:47] Jullianna Juliesse: No.
[18:47] Jullianna Juliesse: There is not. She is all-forgiving.
[18:47] Mengxia Yumako: I imagine that once we die, all the things that our physical bodies kept us from perceiving become clear.
[18:47] Mengxia Yumako: Then, even if we turned away from Dea in life, we will turn back to her in death.
[18:47] Jullianna Juliesse: I had a revelation in a dream once about what eternal punishement was.
[18:48] Adele Poppy: We don't have that, darling.
[18:48] Mati Kira: Yes?
[18:48] Jullianna Juliesse: If we do not follow Dea, surely we shall not be with her>
[18:49] Sushuri Madonna: In the end, all beings return to Her
[18:49] Jullianna Juliesse: *?
[18:49] Adele Poppy: No, we are gathered in, as wayward children are gathered when they sleep.
[18:49] Sushuri Madonna: Even the demons
[18:49] Mengxia Yumako: That is how deep Her forgiveness runs.
[18:49] Adele Poppy: Even the most vile, base creatures.
[18:49] Adele Poppy: They are made whole.
[18:50] Mengxia Yumako: Atheists say that they do not want to be with Dea, but that is only because they do not know that She exists.
[18:50] Mengxia Yumako: If they could get proof that would convince them of Her, they would want tobe with Her.
[18:50] Mengxia Yumako: The only ones I can think of who really do not want to be with Dea are Satanists. And I cannot fathom how they think.
[18:50] Sushuri Madonna: Well if She were a nothingness - one would not want to be with Her.
[18:50] Jullianna Juliesse: Faith does not require proof. Isn't that a prerequisite of it?
[18:50] Adele Poppy: Of course.
[18:51] Mengxia Yumako: Yes. That is why atheists say that faith is silly.
[18:51] Adele Poppy: Satanists are actually very devout Christians, to my way of thinking, in a backards sort of way.
[18:51] Jullianna Juliesse: Inverse Christians.
[18:51] Sushuri Madonna: Yes.
[18:51] Mati Kira: It is a rare blessing in this lifetime to see beyond the physical and feel the presence of our divine Dea.
[18:51] Sushuri Madonna: It is.
[18:52] Adele Poppy: They are like children who shout, "I don't believe in Dea and I'm MAD at her!"
[18:52] Mengxia Yumako: Exactly!
[18:52] Mengxia Yumako: It is like an ostrich sticking its head in the sand.
[18:52] Jullianna Juliesse: If Dea gathers all her children in irregardless, then that is the reward for following her ways in this world.
[18:52] Adele Poppy: No, it is the consequence of her Daughter's sacrifice.
[18:53] Mengxia Yumako: The reward for following her in this world is a happy life!
[18:53] Mati Kira: I feel the reward is now! Our lives are so much better for understanding her place in them.
[18:53] Adele Poppy: We are all gathered to her.
[18:53] Jullianna Juliesse: That is what I meant.
[18:53] Adele Poppy: I do too.
[18:53] Mengxia Yumako: Even martyrs being tortured are happier than the wealthiest atheist.
[18:53] Sushuri Madonna: Well I do not believe we are ingatered at the end of this life.
[18:54] Adele Poppy: Perhaps at the inbreathing of all Time.
[18:54] Sushuri Madonna: We might go to a paradise.
[18:54] Adele Poppy: When do you think we are integrated?
[18:54] Sushuri Madonna: For each being it is when she is fully Realized.
[18:54] Adele Poppy: And I don't think martyrs are neccessarily happier. Especially tortured ones.
[18:55] Sushuri Madonna: Which is the same as the end of the universe in a way - time and space are annihilated
[18:55] Mengxia Yumako: Well, maybe not HAPPY...I can't quite articulate my point.
[18:55] Sushuri Madonna: They can be though - if they are saints.
[18:55] Adele Poppy: Yes.
[18:56] Adele Poppy: I'd rather not be martyred. And I am no saint. I like riskay stories!
[18:56] Sushuri Madonna: So whether the ingathering is individual or universal is no longer a question.
[18:57] Mengxia Yumako: Let's just say I'd rather be tortured than convinced that there is no Dea.
[18:57] Adele Poppy: Oh, I see.
[18:57] Mengxia Yumako: I would die happy, rather than live uncertainly.
[18:57] Sushuri Madonna: "Individual" and "universal" , "beginning" and "end" no longer exist.
[18:57] Adele Poppy: "And there shall be time no longer" as it says in Revelations.
[18:58] Sushuri Madonna: Yes.
[18:58] Mati Kira: Miss Madonna are you sort of saying that we are all sparks of our divine Dea all striving to self realize and then become one with her again?
[18:58] Adele Poppy: It is a universal concept, I think, and an important one, that Time is only a part of this manifestation.
[18:59] Sushuri Madonna: Yes - Miss Kira - I think that is a true way of putting it
[18:59] Adele Poppy: Yes!
[18:59] Jullianna Juliesse: Shall it happen in own maid's unique time?
[18:59] Jullianna Juliesse: *each own
[18:59] Mengxia Yumako: I like the "divine spark" analogy. It incorprates solar imagery.
[18:59] Sushuri Madonna: But that does not imply that Dea is "distributed" - that she is any less for the lack of us
[19:00] Sushuri Madonna: yes.
[19:00] Mati Kira: A mother is no less for bringing forth a child.
[19:00] Sushuri Madonna: Actually the Creation expresses it this way
[19:01] Mati Kira: Please excuse me for just one moment.
[19:01] Mengxia Yumako: Of course!
[19:01] Adele Poppy: Of course.
[19:01] Jullianna Juliesse: Yes.
[19:02] Sushuri Madonna: And all were Her daughters. And Her love for each was inexhaustible, for each was a reflection of some boundless fragment of Her unbounded Spirit. 15. And all their multitude did not exhaust the number of the fragments of Her Spirit.
[19:02] Sushuri Madonna: Of course
[19:03] Sushuri Madonna: a reflection of some boundless fragment of Her unbounded Spirit - that is a spark reflected
[19:03] Sushuri Madonna: So the spark is still in Dea, as it were
[19:03] Adele Poppy: Yes.
[19:03] Mengxia Yumako: Like the widow's jug of oil in the Bible that never ran out.
[19:03] Sushuri Madonna: Yes
[19:04] Mati Kira: Thank you. I am back.
[19:04] Jullianna Juliesse: Rayati.
[19:04] Mengxia Yumako: Rayati!
[19:04] Sushuri Madonna: Rayati
[19:04] Adele Poppy: Smoochati rayati!
[19:04] Mengxia Yumako: I would like to talk about the quote "Human beings cannot bear very much reality." Do you think that is why the Pit reacts so violently to us? We are realer than it, and it cannot handle us?
[19:04] Mengxia Yumako: One of the reasons, anyway.
[19:04] Sushuri Madonna: Yes I definitely think it is one.
[19:05] Jullianna Juliesse: What page are you on? I would like to look at the whole passage.
[19:05] Mengxia Yumako: Page 22.
[19:05] Mengxia Yumako: Top of the page.
[19:05] Mengxia Yumako: We do not overwhelm their physical senses--much--but we overwhelm things like sense of morality.
[19:06] Sushuri Madonna: It is from TS Eliot's Four Quartets
[19:06] Mengxia Yumako: Sense of duty.
[19:06] Sushuri Madonna: That is why it is in quotes
[19:06] Mati Kira: As humans maybe we only have a certain capacity to understand. If we are overloaded we "melt"
[19:06] Mengxia Yumako: And all the other things Mr. Crosby's character talks about in The Bells of St. Mary.
[19:06] Jullianna Juliesse: I think we are taxed too as well, and our sense are more finely honed that those in the Pit.
[19:06] Sushuri Madonna: Yes, that is very true
[19:07] Jullianna Juliesse: The Pit Dwellers numb themselves to it.
[19:07] Mengxia Yumako: And we are the pins-and-needles that you get when something unnumbs.
[19:07] Jullianna Juliesse: As a new Aristasian, it has been a beautiful, but painful transition.
[19:07] Sushuri Madonna: It can make us very uncomfortable.
[19:07] Mengxia Yumako: But once the pins and needles go away, your feet feel so much better!
[19:07] Jullianna Juliesse: Once you take the morphine away, the pain returns.
[19:07] Mengxia Yumako: Or arms, or whatever went numb.
[19:08] Jullianna Juliesse: Which I believe why secession is the only true option to remove the pain.
[19:08] Sushuri Madonna: Miss Bethune suggested that one reason so many Aristasians are subject to clinical depression is that they are more sensitive to the Pit.
[19:08] Mengxia Yumako: I agree with that!
[19:08] Jullianna Juliesse: Yes. I know I am!
[19:08] Mengxia Yumako: As a blonde with depression.
[19:08] Mati Kira: I would like to address that.
[19:08] Jullianna Juliesse: And I as well.
[19:08] Jullianna Juliesse: Please do.
[19:09] Sushuri Madonna: Yes, please do.
[19:09] Mengxia Yumako: Yes!
[19:09] Mati Kira: As a new Aristasian I am dealing with depression.
[19:09] Adele Poppy: Moi aussi
[19:09] Mati Kira: I feel such a loss
[19:09] Mati Kira: not for myself but for the world.
[19:09] Sushuri Madonna: Join the club
[19:09] Mengxia Yumako: Do not be afraid to medicate!
[19:10] Sushuri Madonna: I am afraid most of us do.
[19:10] Mengxia Yumako: And do not let anyone tell you "Oh, it's just in your head. Just get over it!"
[19:10] Adele Poppy: I am so grateful for SSRIs, Miss Kira.
[19:10] Mengxia Yumako: Depression as a result of the Pit is not something one can just "get over". It leaves our bodies altered.
[19:10] Mati Kira: You can't "get over it" because its everywhere.
[19:11] Mengxia Yumako: I find that working to strengthen our community helps to combat depression for the world.
[19:11] Jullianna Juliesse: You would not criticize a diabetic for needing isulin.
[19:12] Mengxia Yumako: The Library, things like that.
[19:12] Sushuri Madonna: Yes.
[19:12] Jullianna Juliesse: Our bodies just don not make enough Seratonin.
[19:12] Mengxia Yumako: Because we are that oasis, waiting for people to come to us.
[19:12] Sushuri Madonna: My hope is to build a true sanctuary.
Sai Saraswati Public Library: Your on-the-ground library in Telluria.
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Mengxia Yu
Contributy supermaiden

Joined: 07 Feb 2008
Posts: 435
Location: Arkadya

PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the transcript from chapter two!

[18:12] Mengxia Yumako: Rayati, everyone! Please have a seat!
[18:12] Sushuri Madonna: RAyati everyone
[18:12] Mengxia Yumako: Let's see...we are on chapter two this week.
[18:12] Sushuri Madonna: Miss Poppy cannot come tonight
[18:13] Mengxia Yumako: Does anyone have a question to start us off?
[18:13] Sushuri Madonna: She has a concert and a PM appointment
[18:14] Mati Kira: Well I would like to talk about the divine Essences. The deep intuition that wasn't finally ruptured until the late 19th century.
[18:14] Mati Kira: Would anyone here like to speak to us further on that?
[18:14] Jullianna Juliesse: It was a gradual erosion, was it not?
[18:15] Sushuri Madonna: It was
[18:15] Mengxia Yumako: Yes.
[18:15] Sushuri Madonna: It started in the late Middle Ages
[18:15] Mati Kira: The book mentions it being in the late 19th century
[18:15] Jullianna Juliesse: Well the industrial age certainly sped it up.
[18:16] Sushuri Madonna: I think in the late 19th century a fully substantialist perspective beacame possible
[18:16] Jullianna Juliesse: Industrialism caused greater deracination of society, don't you think?
[18:17] Sushuri Madonna: That was a lot because of the Pseudomythos - but that is Chapter 6!
[18:17] Jullianna Juliesse: you are cheating!
[18:17] Sushuri Madonna: As it happened, I think it did - I don't think it necessarily had to.
[18:17] Mati Kira: Was Industrialism the cause or the effect?
[18:18] Jullianna Juliesse: What do you think?
[18:18] Sushuri Madonna: Aristasia is industrialized but not deracinated.
[18:18] Sushuri Madonna: I think industrialization took place on the back of a "science" that was materialist in nature.
[18:19] Mengxia Yumako: Yes. Telluria separated their industrial inventions from their metaphysical lives.
[18:19] Mengxia Yumako: If that makes sense.
[18:19] Sushuri Madonna: So it was a form of industrialization that was particularly deracinating
[18:19] Mengxia Yumako: "We have bested Dea with this machine!" not "This machine does Dea's work!"
[18:20] Sushuri Madonna: Or perhaps more to the point - industrialization raises certain problems for which a substantialist society has no answers
[18:21] Mengxia Yumako: The whole "Playing Dea" problem?
[18:21] Sushuri Madonna: Just as the Heliocentric universe COULD have been part of a metaphyiscally-based cosmology
[18:22] Sushuri Madonna: But the West had already lost the knowledge to incorporate it properly
[18:22] Sushuri Madonna: So it falsely "demythologized" the cosmos
[18:22] Sushuri Madonna: Yes, that problem
[18:23] Sushuri Madonna: And the fact that it disrupts the traditional Estates
[18:23] Jullianna Juliesse: Yes.
[18:24] Sushuri Madonna: A whole structure of society has to be rebuilt in some respects
[18:24] Sushuri Madonna: And one needs to have the principles to do that
[18:24] Jullianna Juliesse: Well, isn't that rather where we come in?
[18:25] Sushuri Madonna: Heehee - I think I forgot where we did come in
[18:25] Mengxia Yumako: I find it interesting that technology, rather than land, now defines one's social status.
[18:25] Mengxia Yumako: Or helps to.
[18:25] Mengxia Yumako: Formerly, one was considered rich if one had lots of land.
[18:25] Sushuri Madonna: Yes - and money, of course
[18:25] Mengxia Yumako: Now one is rich if one has the latest field ordies and televisions and automobiles.
[18:26] Mengxia Yumako: One is considered silly if one does not use one's money to purchase these things.
[18:26] Sushuri Madonna: An industrial society is much more money-centered/
[18:26] Sushuri Madonna: The mobile value of money rather than the rooted value of land.
[18:27] Sushuri Madonna: The concept of ownership rather than stewardship/
[18:39] Mengxia Yumako: To get back on topic--I would like to discuss Dada briefly.
[18:39] Mati Kira: Good.
[18:39] Mengxia Yumako: It seems to me like the ultimate inversion, as far as art is concerned.
[18:40] Mengxia Yumako: To just take something randomly and say: "This is ART!"
[18:40] Mati Kira: Also Warhol.
[18:40] Mengxia Yumako: Is that the fellow who painted cans of soup?
[18:40] Mati Kira: Yes
[18:40] Mengxia Yumako: Close enough to Dada for me.
[18:40] Sushuri Madonna: Yes - there is lots of post Dada - but I think Dada began it.
[18:41] Mati Kira: I am certain you are right.
[18:41] Mengxia Yumako: It takes the basest result and says "This must be the archetype!"
[18:42] Mati Kira: Artists have their thumb on the pulsebeat of society. They can't escape their role.
[18:42] Sushuri Madonna: Oddly people still think it is revolutionary when it is so old that all the founders are dead.
[18:42] Mati Kira: They often anticipate what is coming next.
[18:42] Mengxia Yumako: And the founders admit that they just made up nonsense, didn't they?
[18:42] Sushuri Madonna: Yes.
[18:42] Mati Kira: Yes.
[18:43] Sushuri Madonna: They made a virtue of making up nonsense.
[18:43] Mengxia Yumako: Granted, some nonsense literature is quite fun.
[18:43] Mengxia Yumako: And dates back a long way.
[18:43] Sushuri Madonna: But not good nonsense like Edward Lear
[18:43] Mengxia Yumako: I was just about to mention him!
[18:43] Mati Kira: Me too
[18:43] Sushuri Madonna: That is a different kind of nonsense.
[18:43] Mengxia Yumako: Yes.
[18:44] Sushuri Madonna: It is clever, nonsense that takes discipline to write.
[18:44] Mengxia Yumako: I wrote a paper about nonsense literature. It is not really nonsense as in "making absolutely no sense at all."
[18:44] Mengxia Yumako: It follows things like rhyme and structure.
[18:44] Sushuri Madonna: Yes - exactly.
[18:44] Sushuri Madonna: It is like an "alternate sense" really.
[18:44] Mengxia Yumako: Yes.
[18:45] Sushuri Madonna: It usually follows its own logic.
[18:45] Mengxia Yumako: If memory serves, the name "Dada" was chosen by opening a French dictionary and pointing?
[18:45] Mati Kira: There is also the idea of "constructive" vs "destructive". Dada is definately the later.
[18:45] Mati Kira: Deliberate
[18:46] Sushuri Madonna: Yes.
[18:47] Sushuri Madonna: It only exists by what it opposes.
[18:47] Mengxia Yumako: Yes.
[18:47] Mengxia Yumako: Just like Satanism, in fact.
[18:47] Sushuri Madonna: Yes - or like evil altogether
[18:48] Sushuri Madonna: which is just un-good.
[18:48] Mengxia Yumako: Yes.
[18:48] Mengxia Yumako: I watched a documentary about Satanism.
[18:48] Sushuri Madonna: Really?
[18:48] Mati Kira: REally?
[18:49] Mengxia Yumako: And it was not so much about actually worshipping Satan as it was about doing the opposite of what "good" society wanted.
[18:49] Mengxia Yumako: In religion or in daily life.
[18:50] Mati Kira: Have you noticed how many people think it is wonderful to be scary looking?
[18:50] Mengxia Yumako: Making regular people uncomfortable.
[18:50] Mengxia Yumako: I have noticed that.
[18:50] Sushuri Madonna: Yes
[18:51] Mati Kira: And they go out of their way to look ugly. (and scary)
[18:51] Mengxia Yumako: They are unhappy with Telluria, but they don't know how to really make it uncomfortable.
[18:51] Sushuri Madonna: So actually Satanism is just a fancy name for what half the bongo music industry and mass media spends all its time doing
[18:51] Mengxia Yumako: Yes.
[18:52] Mati Kira: Well its a fancy name for almost everything outside our door!
[18:52] Mengxia Yumako: The only difference is that Satanists go to as many extremes as they can.
[18:53] Mati Kira: Now - a - days Satanists have to really go to extremes.
[18:53] Mengxia Yumako: Yes.
[18:53] Sushuri Madonna: Well I suppose they have to be pretty extrene to distinguish themselves from the crowd
[18:53] Mengxia Yumako: I really would not be surprised if the kinnie Suicide Circle came true.
[18:53] Sushuri Madonna: What is that?
[18:54] Mengxia Yumako: It is a kinnie that depicts a society that is so off-kilter that even suicide has become a fad.
[18:54] Sushuri Madonna: Didn't Chesterton do a story on a suicide club?
[18:54] Mengxia Yumako: I am not sure.
[18:54] Mati Kira: I have never heard of this.
[18:54] Mati Kira: Suicide bombers yes.
[18:54] Mengxia Yumako: It is a hard kinnie to watch, but it has a lot to say.
[18:55] Mengxia Yumako: "Watch me die, everyone!"
[18:55] Mengxia Yumako: "I'll show YOU how to die!"
[18:55] Mati Kira: Ohhhhhh! How terrible.
[18:55] Mengxia Yumako: The characters do not know how to value themselves as creations of Dea.
[18:55] Mengxia Yumako: They only have society to measure themselves.
[18:55] Mengxia Yumako: And it is an empty society.
[18:56] Mengxia Yumako: The heroine manages to break out of the "suicide circle".
[18:56] Mengxia Yumako: She realizes that she is inherently valuable as a person.
[18:56] Sushuri Madonna: What a horrible society.
[18:56] Mengxia Yumako: And that she should not take her own life just because it might make things easier financially on her family, or something like that.
[18:56] Mengxia Yumako: I fear we are headed toward that society.
[18:57] Sushuri Madonna: Life certainlly is becoming less valued.
[18:57] Mati Kira: I always wondered how a group like that or a terrorist group is able to convince people to think suicide is good.
[18:57] Mengxia Yumako: Well, in the kinnie, there is an advert put on by a group of housewives.
[18:58] Mengxia Yumako: They tell the viewers "Don't be a burden to your family! Kill yourself today!"
[18:58] Mengxia Yumako: It works by guilt.
[18:58] Mengxia Yumako: The Pit says that you must make yourself valuable because of what you can do for others.
[18:58] Sushuri Madonna: Oh that is awful.
[18:58] Mengxia Yumako: The Pit does not realize that everyone is inherently valuable.
[18:58] Mengxia Yumako: As one who had considered suicide before finding Aristasia, I have thought about this very hard.
[18:58] Mengxia Yumako: Does usefulness equal worthfulness?
[18:59] Mati Kira: What about the burden of sorrow you put your family through?
[18:59] Mati Kira: What family can bear that loss?
[18:59] Mengxia Yumako: I had myself convinced that they would be happier without me, because I was a burden anyway thanks to a slew of undiagnosed mental illnesses.
[18:59] Sushuri Madonna: In a way that started with Henry VIII - the propaganda for dissolving the monastries because religious aren't "useful" to society
[19:00] Mengxia Yumako: Everyone is inherently useful. Dea would not create us without a purpose.
[19:00] Sushuri Madonna: (actually they were - but that is another matter)
[19:00] Mengxia Yumako: And no matter how small, the things we do for others are incredibly valuable.
[19:00] Sushuri Madonna: Yes.
[19:01] Mengxia Yumako: An action that might seem like nothing can mean the world.
[19:01] Mengxia Yumako: Have you all seen the kinnie Seven Pounds?
[19:01] Mengxia Yumako: Pay if Forward might be a better example.
[19:01] Sushuri Madonna: No.
[19:01] Mengxia Yumako: But Seven Pounds tries to capture the same feeling.
[19:01] Mengxia Yumako: Seven Pounds is about a fellow who loses his wife to a car accident.
[19:02] Mengxia Yumako: The accident is caused because he is talking on his field telly while driving.
[19:02] Mengxia Yumako: The people in the other car die too.
[19:02] Mengxia Yumako: He is devastated.
[19:02] Mengxia Yumako: He dedicates his life to trying to compensate for what he has done.
[19:02] Mengxia Yumako: Doing bigger and bigger things for people.
[19:02] Mengxia Yumako: He gives his home to a woman who is being abused by her spouse.
[19:03] Mengxia Yumako: He donates organs and bone marrow--eventually even his heart.
[19:03] Mengxia Yumako: However, he does little things too that make a lot of difference.
[19:03] Mengxia Yumako: Weeding a woman's garden.
[19:03] Mengxia Yumako: Fixing things for her.
[19:03] Mengxia Yumako: That kinnie tries to make a point that we can do big things for people, but we can do small things too.
[19:03] Mengxia Yumako: And they are still streemly important.
[19:04] Mengxia Yumako: (It was nice to see a kinnie that had a point to it. I cried at the end.)
[19:04] Mengxia Yumako: Now, we do not have to donate bone marrow and houses.
[19:04] Sushuri Madonna: Oh it does sound very sad.
[19:04] Mengxia Yumako: I find that leaving an opening for someone to turn while driving can really make their days!
[19:05] Sushuri Madonna: That is nice.
[19:06] Mengxia Yumako: The Pit de-values those little things.
[19:06] Mati Kira: Driving is a place where kindness is noticed and really appreciated.
[19:06] Mengxia Yumako: Doesn't Boromir in the Lord of the Rings say something like "Such a little thing...such a powerful thing"?
[19:06] Sushuri Madonna: I don't get into the pit much, but I try to be polite to anyone I encounter.
[19:07] Mati Kira: There are so many people who see it as an escape from daily expected behavior and are rude.
[19:08] Mengxia Yumako: Yes, that is true!
[19:08] Mengxia Yumako: There is an Elektrasite that even sells a plate you can put in your back window.
[19:08] Mengxia Yumako: It has LEDs, and you can type rude messages into it.
[19:08] Mengxia Yumako: (My sister told me about it.)
[19:08] Sushuri Madonna: It is amazing how rude people are in elektra because they are anonymous
[19:09] Mengxia Yumako: Yes.
[19:09] Mengxia Yumako: They think that their interactions here are not "real".
[19:09] Sushuri Madonna: We have to moderate comments on YouTube kinnies because coarse comments are the norm
[19:10] Mati Kira: That means they think on interactions are real that have real world consiquences.
[19:10] Mati Kira: Rather than thinking how this behavior will lower their own soul.
[19:11] Mati Kira: Our actions greatly reflect our inner place and sense of self.
[19:11] Sushuri Madonna: Yes.
[19:12] Mengxia Yumako: Yes.
[19:12] Sushuri Madonna: That is very true.
[19:12] Mengxia Yumako: Rather, they think that Elektraspace is not the real world, because it does not have ramifications in their immediate physical lives.
[19:13] Sushuri Madonna: which is chilling because thes seem to think that if there is no payback for being horrid then it is all right
[19:13] Mengxia Yumako: Yes.
[19:13] Mati Kira: But it is their own persons they are hurting. And yes they have made someone elses day a little more miserable too.
[19:14] Mengxia Yumako: Quite.
[19:15] Mati Kira: It is like a hit and run accident or cheating on your wife. Who suffers in their soul? Is the gain of not having to pay damages worth it?
[19:15] Sushuri Madonna: Yes.
[19:16] Sushuri Madonna: but maybe they don't believe in their own souls.
[19:16] Mati Kira: Just these bags of flesh and blood running around eating and sleeping. So sad.
[19:17] Mengxia Yumako: They don't. They belong to the Church of Atheism.
[19:17] Mengxia Yumako: They do see themselves of bags of flesh, blood, and bones that eat and sleep.
[19:17] Sushuri Madonna: That is so awful.
[19:18] Mati Kira: We begin to look at ourselves as we seem to look and treat cattle.
[19:18] Mati Kira: I am not in favor of that either by the way.
[19:18] Mati Kira: Life becomes a treadmill.
[19:18] Mengxia Yumako: Me neither.
[19:19] Mengxia Yumako: How ironic that the food pyramid used on cereal boxes for years was the same one used to fatten cattle for slaughter.
[19:19] Mati Kira: Really!?
[19:19] Mengxia Yumako: Yes.
[19:20] Mengxia Yumako: It had grains as the biggest food group.
[19:20] Mengxia Yumako: If you look, the new one is now fruits and vegetables as the biggest food group.
[19:20] Mati Kira: I have a dear friend who worked at a slaughter house for many years. Those places are just nightmares.
[19:20] Sushuri Madonna: Oh dear.
[19:20] Mati Kira: They drag humanity downwards.
[19:20] Mengxia Yumako: That is why I am a vegetarian!
[19:21] Mati Kira: Really Miss Yu?
[19:21] Mengxia Yumako: Yes.
[19:21] Mengxia Yumako: Or, when I am with my family and have to eat meat, I coerce them into buying free-range.
[19:21] Sushuri Madonna: Yes - that is much better.
[19:21] Mengxia Yumako: It is.
[19:22] Sushuri Madonna: Factory eggs are terrible.
[19:22] Mengxia Yumako: Free-range eggs are better too.
[19:22] Mengxia Yumako: Factories put the chickens in cages where they cannot even sit down.
[19:22] Mengxia Yumako: And the eggs roll down chutes.
[19:22] Mati Kira: I hear they cut off their beaks.
[19:22] Mengxia Yumako: I had not heard about that.
[19:22] Mati Kira: Horrible.
[19:23] Sushuri Madonna: Ohhh
[19:23] Mati Kira: They are truly treated like meat.
[19:23] Mengxia Yumako: Yes.
[19:23] Mengxia Yumako: Not like animals.
[19:23] Mengxia Yumako: Now, there is nothing wrong with eating them, but we should treat them with care.
[19:23] Mengxia Yumako: They depend on us to do so!
[19:24] Sushuri Madonna: yes that is right
[19:24] Mati Kira: They are starting to almost use the same practices in "puppy mills"
[19:25] Mati Kira: Creating purebred or special crossbreed puppies for the consumer markets never ending demand.
[19:25] Mengxia Yumako: That is awful.
[19:25] Mati Kira: The breeding animals are treated again like meat.
[19:25] Mati Kira: Caged and tossed out after their "useful" life is over.
[19:26] Mati Kira: I just can't stand it!
[19:26] Mengxia Yumako: It is no wonder that the Pit treats its own so horribly.
[19:27] Mengxia Yumako: It seems to have a history of letting down those who depend on it.
[19:27] Mati Kira: Everything and everyone becomes a commodity.
[19:28] Sushuri Madonna is Offline
[19:28] Mati Kira: Charted for its monitary value.
[19:28] Mati Kira: We have lost Miss Madonna I fear.
[19:28] Mengxia Yumako: Oh dear!
[19:28] Mengxia Yumako: If she does not return soon, we can wrap it up for tonight.
[19:29] Mati Kira: I wish we could leave things on a better note!
[19:30] Mati Kira: Frankly it is a true blessing to be with my honoured Maids because I can really leave the Pit behind.
[19:30] Mengxia Yumako: We can end with a group hug!
[19:30] Mati Kira: If I become too involved in Pit things I start getting depressed again.
[19:30] Mati Kira: Yes group hug!
[19:30] Mengxia Yumako: Me too.
[19:31] Mengxia Yumako: I was sooo messed up before Aristasia.
[19:31] Mati Kira: I think I was just "numb"
[19:31] Mati Kira: That is how I made my way through the day.
[19:31] Mati Kira: There has been a stripping process.
[19:32] Mengxia Yumako: I went past numb to crazy.
[19:32] Mati Kira: I understand you.
[19:32] Mati Kira: What is a sensitive person to do?
[19:33] Mati Kira: It is like being forever stuck in a Horror Movie.
[19:33] Mengxia Yumako: Move to Aristasia!
[19:33] Mati Kira: Think of all the people who need us and don't have a means to get here!
[19:33] Mengxia Yumako: Yes!
[19:34] Mengxia Yumako: That is why we need to be visible.
[19:34] Mengxia Yumako: With things like our books.
[19:34] Mati Kira: I must be our mission to continue to open ways and doors to this table.
[19:34] Mati Kira: Yes. It is happening!
[19:34] Mengxia Yumako: It is!
[19:34] Sushuri Madonna is Online
[19:35] Mengxia Yumako: Welcome back, Madonna-chei!
[19:35] Mati Kira: We are blessed again!
[19:35] Mati Kira: Rayati Miss Madonna!
[19:35] Mengxia Yumako: We are!
[19:36] Sushuri Madonna: Rayati gain
[19:36] Mengxia Yumako: Should we wrap things up? I am getting pretty tired.
[19:36] Mati Kira: It is so nice to have you back!
[19:36] Mati Kira: We do need to wrap up.
[19:36] Mati Kira: We need an animation for "group hug"
[19:36] Sushuri Madonna: Yes I am tired too.
[19:36] Mengxia Yumako: We do.
[19:37] Sushuri Madonna: I can't move properly
[19:38] Mati Kira: Virtualia has its little challenges.
[19:38] Mengxia Yumako: Yes.
[19:38] Mengxia Yumako: I will post our transcript up in the Fora.
Sai Saraswati Public Library: Your on-the-ground library in Telluria.
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Daffodil Finesmith
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Joined: 27 May 2008
Posts: 125
Location: Vintesse

PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been reading the Book Club minutes with great fascination since my return. Unfortunately Friday evenings are not easy for me, so I shall prolly continue to read the discussions here on the fora.

There was one piece of the discussion that simply jumped out at me however:

[18:39] Mengxia Yumako: To get back on topic--I would like to discuss Dada briefly.
[18:39] Mati Kira: Good.
[18:39] Mengxia Yumako: It seems to me like the ultimate inversion, as far as art is concerned.
[18:40] Mengxia Yumako: To just take something randomly and say: "This is ART!"
[18:40] Mati Kira: Also Warhol.
[18:40] Mengxia Yumako: Is that the fellow who painted cans of soup?
[18:40] Mati Kira: Yes
[18:40] Mengxia Yumako: Close enough to Dada for me.
[18:40] Sushuri Madonna: Yes - there is lots of post Dada - but I think Dada began it.
[18:41] Mati Kira: I am certain you are right.
[18:41] Mengxia Yumako: It takes the basest result and says "This must be the archetype!"
[18:42] Mati Kira: Artists have their thumb on the pulsebeat of society. They can't escape their role.
[18:42] Sushuri Madonna: Oddly people still think it is revolutionary when it is so old that all the founders are dead.
[18:42] Mati Kira: They often anticipate what is coming next.
[18:42] Mengxia Yumako: And the founders admit that they just made up nonsense, didn't they?
[18:42] Sushuri Madonna: Yes.
[18:42] Mati Kira: Yes.
[18:43] Sushuri Madonna: They made a virtue of making up nonsense.

I am reading this quite hopping up and down in my seat like a student who knows the answer and the teacher won't call on me.

Please, please, it must be remembered that the artistic movement known as Dada did not occur in a vacuum. Indeed, it was a direct reaction to the rationalist causes of the First World War. That war tumbled into the atrocity it became not because the countries involved were behaving irrationally but rather all too coldly rational- they were honouring their alliances, one after the other, declaring war and causing destruction until the whole of Europe was consumed in a monumental and 'rational' horror.

The artists of the time (1920s) looked at what rationalism had wrought and wondered if perhaps nonsense might be the better choice after all? It was primarily an anti-war movement.

Here is Le Cadeau by M. Ray. Unlike a traditional representational work of art depicting the world about us as we see it with our eyes, a work like this attempts to see into the world beyond the mere physical and depict its meaning. The artwork of Dada artists is also intentionally ambiguous which allows the viewer an opportunity for personal reflection as opposed to being told what to think. The unlikely combination of two ordinary household items creates a tension in the mind, rather like a Zen Koan.

Whew. Sorry, for the belated interjection this but is a subject I have studied extensively. Am I forgiven?

Miss Daffodil
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Cecile Landgrebe
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miss Finesmith! How lovely to see you again!

I didn't know this about Dada. Thank you for sharing. It is very interesting.
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Sushuri Madonna

Joined: 07 Feb 2008
Posts: 335
Location: In a strange and scary place on a long journey homeward.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is nothing to forgive, honored Miss Finesmith. We love discussion and there is no such thing as "too late".

What you say, I think, is very true. Rationalism and its inherently flawed approach is addressed from the Aristasian point of view in this article.

In many ways the primary difference between the modern Aristasian and modern Tellurian philosophy and world-outlooks is that Aristasia never had a "Rationalist Revolution".

The problem in Telluria is that, having discarded the superior principles of Solar Intellect, its only response to excessive rationalism is either an excessive emotionalism or a pure "irrationalism" a la Dada.

The point is that while, to someone stuck in the "rationalist matrix", irrationalism seems to be the opposite of rationalism, in fact it is simply a different face of the same error - the other end of the same stick.

Irrationalism comes about because the errors of rationalism are not perceived, and the only answer that can be found to the cult of promoting reason beyond its proper degree is to abandon reason altogether.

See: Rationalism
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Daffodil Finesmith
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Joined: 27 May 2008
Posts: 125
Location: Vintesse

PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miss Madonna wrote:

The problem in Telluria is that, having discarded the superior principles of Solar Intellect, its only response to excessive rationalism is either an excessive emotionalism or a pure "irrationalism" a la Dada.

The point is that while, to someone stuck in the "rationalist matrix", irrationalism seems to be the opposite of rationalism, in fact it is simply a different face of the same error - the other end of the same stick.

The Dada movement was quite small and rather short lived yet it had enormous impact all the same. It shows that even 'speaking nonsense to power' can have quite an effect, does it not? If I had my druthers of being forced to choose between the two- rationalism and nonsense- I believe I might prefer nonsense. Fortunately I am not forced to choose. <smile> But were they so wrong to upset the rationalist status quo by causing those of a rational mindset some minor discomfort following such a war?

Miss Madonna, I agree with your above description of the false dichotomy absolutely. And I believe the Dada artists actually came to same conclusion themselves after a short time. If they were honest, I think they would admit that they were disingenuous about making pure nonsense in the first place, which is almost impossible to do. (I'm reminded of the Math professor who before leaving the classroom, divided her class in two and asked half her students to flip a coin, keeping a graph on the blackboard and the other half to invent 'random' coin flips, keeping a similar graph on another board. When she returned she could immediately tell which was the truly random graph and which was the made up graph. We always inadvertently create patterns and meaning even when trying not to.)

Whatever the reason, the Dada artists quickly came to see their nonsense as a dead end. What followed was far more interesting- Surrealism. Dada might be viewed as a kind of 'false start' before moving on to Surrealism.

The artists who formed the Surrealist movement agreed with Dada in so far as rejecting the kind of rational thinking that brought about WWI was the correct thing to do. But they wanted to put more than mere purported nonsense in its stead. Initially influenced by Freud's then current theories of the subconscious and dreams analysis, they felt that here lay fertile ground in which to reject rationalism and seek even deeper truths about the human condition. They attempted to 'switch off' rational thought and let their sub-conscious, their dreams, well up and inspire them.

Here is a piece by one of my favorite Surrealist painters, Remedios Varo. It's titled The Creation of the Birds, and she painted it in 1957. I personally find it a profoundly moving work of art.

Miss Daffodil
ps- I can literally go on for hours and hours about this subject, so please let me know if I'm being a bore.
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Mengxia Yu
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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the transcript from chapter three!

[18:24] PhoebeJoya Pearl: May I ask, I lost the thread of the chapter somewhat, when I read about the vertical and horizontal axis, could either of you explain that, in relationship to the Three Gunas, please!!
[18:24] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Oops sorry did not mean to interupt the conversation!
[18:25] Tascha Klees: Please excuse me for just one moment.
[18:25] Mengxia Yumako: Of course!
[18:25] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Of course Miss !
[18:26] Mengxia Yumako: The vertical axis is the pillar of the world. It links all things together. When you think of the world axis, think of universal, spiritual things.
[18:27] Mengxia Yumako: The horizontal axis refers to a particular world or plane of being. Think of the physical world.
[18:27] Mengxia Yumako: To oversimplify it, vertical = spiritual, horizontal = physical.
[18:27] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Oh that seems simplier!
[18:28] Tascha Klees: I am back now.
[18:28] Mengxia Yumako: Rayati again!
[18:29] Tascha Klees: Because Miss Pearl wasn't able to come to our other book meeting we could also speak if she would like on chapter one.
[18:29] Mengxia Yumako: Yes, of course!
[18:29] Mengxia Yumako: That is a good idea!
[18:30] Tascha Klees: I was reading today about how scientists argue about the creation of the universe.
[18:30] Mengxia Yumako: What do they argue about?
[18:30] Tascha Klees: That in the early part of this century they all pretty much thought that the universe had existed infinately and would continue to exist forever.
[18:31] Tascha Klees: Then came the big bang.
[18:31] Mengxia Yumako: Ohh, yes.
[18:31] Tascha Klees: Boom. All of a sudden they all had to presto chango.
[18:31] Mengxia Yumako: Some scientist slipped out of her chair and banged her head on the desk, and said "oh, I've just come up with a theory!"
[18:32] Tascha Klees: Exactly
[18:32] Mengxia Yumako: I understand that the Big Bang came as a result of realizing that the universe is expanding.
[18:32] Mengxia Yumako: But in order for it to have banged, the universe would have to be expanding from that point, wouldn't it?
[18:32] Mengxia Yumako: Yet they claim that there is no center of the universe.
[18:32] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Would not ideas not change with time, as people question more?
[18:33] Tascha Klees: Do you know Christopher Hawkin?
[18:33] Mengxia Yumako: No, I don't, Miss Klees.
[18:33] Tascha Klees: Miss Pearl that is it exactly
[18:33] Mengxia Yumako: Certainly, people may ask different questions over time.
[18:33] Mengxia Yumako: But the universal Truth remains the same.
[18:33] Tascha Klees: He is the phyicist who is disabled.
[18:33] Mengxia Yumako: Oh, that fellow!
[18:33] Tascha Klees: Has a muscular disorder.
[18:34] PhoebeJoya Pearl: What is the universal truth?
[18:34] Mengxia Yumako: I know who you mean! I always forget what his first name is.
[18:34] Tascha Klees: Probably the most famous phyiscist of our time
[18:34] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Oh I know too, recently been ill
[18:34] Mengxia Yumako: That Dea created the universe. Not this big bang nonsense.
[18:34] PhoebeJoya Pearl: is it stephen....
[18:34] Tascha Klees: Well I do probably have his name wrong
[18:34] Mengxia Yumako: Oh, yes, it is Stephen.
[18:34] Tascha Klees: Perhaps
[18:34] Mengxia Yumako: Mr. Stephen Hawking?
[18:34] Tascha Klees: Yes its the actor who is Chrisptopher
[18:34] Tascha Klees: Christopher.
[18:34] Tascha Klees: ha ha
[18:35] Mengxia Yumako: I didn't know there was an actor!
[18:35] Tascha Klees: Anyway I was reading today how he believes a God had to start the universe in motion.
[18:35] Mengxia Yumako: Good for him!
[18:35] Tascha Klees: That there had to be divine intervention.
[18:36] Mengxia Yumako: That is refreshing to hear.
[18:36] PhoebeJoya Pearl: He has only just releasised this?
[18:36] Tascha Klees: No this was taken from a paper he presented in 1988.
[18:37] PhoebeJoya Pearl: What does rajasic mean?
[18:37] Mengxia Yumako: "referring to the Post-Eclipse world"
[18:37] Mengxia Yumako: More or less.
[18:38] Mengxia Yumako: Where are you looking?
[18:38] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Sometimes I think this book is wrote in a different language, I guess in a year or so I may understand!!
[18:38] Mengxia Yumako: It does use many terms from different languages!
[18:38] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Top of page 38
[18:38] Mengxia Yumako: Oh, I see.
[18:38] Mengxia Yumako: I am thining of the wrong raj.
[18:39] Mengxia Yumako: That refers to the tendency of things to expand outward, to grow and change.
[18:39] Tascha Klees: Did you read a summary of the three Gunas at the beginning of the chapter?
[18:39] PhoebeJoya Pearl: yes Miss Klees
[18:39] Mengxia Yumako: For some reason I was thinking of Cockney Raj!
[18:39] Mengxia Yumako: Does my definition help, Miss Pearl?
[18:40] PhoebeJoya Pearl: yes thank you MIss
[18:40] Tascha Klees: sattwa Rajas and Tamas
[18:40] Mengxia Yumako: The way I see it, part of the problem is this:
[18:41] Mengxia Yumako: "Science" and "philosophy" now see themselves as answering two different questions.
[18:41] Mengxia Yumako: Professors teach that science asks "how" while philosophy asks "why?"
[18:41] Mengxia Yumako: And in doing so, draw a clear line between the two.
[18:41] Mengxia Yumako: But you cannot do that.
[18:42] PhoebeJoya Pearl: No I should not think we could
[18:42] PhoebeJoya Pearl: When was this book written?
[18:42] Mengxia Yumako: Which book? FU?
[18:42] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Yes Miss
[18:43] PhoebeJoya Pearl: I sort of was thinking when who and why
[18:43] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Who is Alice Trent?
[18:43] Tascha Klees: I would love to know more about the author.
[18:43] Mengxia Yumako: That's a good question! Sometime in the nineties, I want to say.
[18:43] Mengxia Yumako: But I am not sure.
[18:43] Mengxia Yumako: Let me see if I can find out.
[18:43] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Oh thank you
[18:44] Tascha Klees: Do you know anyone who knows the author?
[18:44] PhoebeJoya Pearl: No I dont!!
[18:45] Mengxia Yumako: Published in 1997.
[18:47] Tascha Klees: We are living in an inverted society. That is why everything seems so upside down and wrong.
[18:47] Mengxia Yumako: Yes.
[18:47] PhoebeJoya Pearl: In what way Miss klees
[18:47] Tascha Klees: In almost every way Miss Pearl.
[18:48] Tascha Klees: That is the reason we have found one another and why what we are doing here feels so right.
[18:48] Mengxia Yumako: Clothing, media, even food--it is all upside-down.
[18:48] Tascha Klees: It is like that stream of fresh air coming through the cracks of a window into a stuffy room
[18:49] Mengxia Yumako: Yes!
[18:49] Tascha Klees: All beauty and spirit has slowly been taken away from us. So slowly that most people don't even notice it as it happens.
[18:50] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Do you mean that society has progressed, well not sure progressed is the correct word, to beyond what we has humans want or need?
[18:50] Mengxia Yumako: Society has rather de-gressed.
[18:50] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Almost out run us?
[18:50] Tascha Klees: I think that material progression is getting in the way and dragging us downwards.
[18:51] Mengxia Yumako: You might say that the physical world has gotten out of control.
[18:51] Tascha Klees: Perfect!
[18:51] Mengxia Yumako: It has run off with everyone's minds.
[18:51] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Yes, I am understanding that now!!
[18:52] Mengxia Yumako: Take food, for example!
[18:52] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Children seem no longer to be allowed to be children, to enjoy life, so many worries!!
[18:52] Mengxia Yumako: Yes!
[18:52] Mengxia Yumako: Once a mother would cook a wholesome meal for her family.
[18:52] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Now all fast food!!
[18:52] Mengxia Yumako: Now society puts such demands on a mother's time that she resorts to "fast-food", food empty of nutrition.
[18:52] Mengxia Yumako: Ten minutes in the magic oven, and they call that cooking.
[18:53] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Yes can understand now!
[18:53] Tascha Klees: Empty taste. And we don't notice the difference because we are all too busy.
[18:53] Mengxia Yumako: Yes.
[18:53] Mengxia Yumako: The Pit has gotten to the point where it cannot recognize good food anymore.
[18:53] PhoebeJoya Pearl: My friends live in NZ they say they love being behind, the innocense of their life is different there.
[18:53] Mengxia Yumako: Fine food is actually looked down upon as "snobbY'.
[18:54] Tascha Klees: Cardboard food. Cardboard media. cardboard brains. Cardboard relationships.
[18:54] Mengxia Yumako: That sounds lovely, Miss Pearl!
[18:54] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Yes!
[18:54] Tascha Klees: Soon you are "dulled" and walk through life as a shadow.
[18:54] Tascha Klees: Here we you awake.
[18:55] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Interesting Miss Klees the cardboard!
[18:55] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Jumps
[18:55] Tascha Klees: And believe me it can be very painful.
[18:55] Mengxia Yumako: Here's a good, philosophical question.
[18:55] Mengxia Yumako: What is freedom?
[18:55] Mengxia Yumako: (And I do have an answer.)
[18:55] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Oh intersting question.
[18:56] Tascha Klees: It is a good one to discuss expecially in this context.
[18:56] Tascha Klees: We live in a society that "thinks" it is free.
[18:56] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Yes I am struggling to answer.
[18:57] Mengxia Yumako: The Pit would say that freedom is the ability to do anything, anytime, anywhere.
[18:57] Mengxia Yumako: But that is not true.
[18:57] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Because how Free am I!
[18:57] Tascha Klees: We are stating that no it isn't because we are imprisioned in the muck of the pit.
[18:57] Mengxia Yumako: Freedom is the ability to act within a set of given circumstances.
[18:57] Mengxia Yumako: Freedom is not unlimited action.
[18:57] Tascha Klees: Everything we talk about is just material freedom.
[18:58] Mengxia Yumako: One of my old philosophy professors had a good example illustrating this.
[18:58] Mengxia Yumako: There is a music department at my university with pianos in it.
[18:58] Mengxia Yumako: And anyone is allowed to use them.
[18:58] Mengxia Yumako: And I have plenty of spare time.
[18:58] Mengxia Yumako: Am I free to play Fur Elise on the piano?
[18:58] Tascha Klees: One can be in prison and yet be more free than a so called "free " person living outside the prison walls
[18:58] Mengxia Yumako: No, I am not, because I do not know how to play the piano!
[18:59] Mengxia Yumako: The Pit would say that I am free to play Fur Elise.
[18:59] Mengxia Yumako: Oh, that was out of order.
[18:59] Tascha Klees: No it wasn't Yu-chei
[18:59] Tascha Klees: That was very good.
[18:59] Mengxia Yumako: We are truly free when we have restraints.
[18:59] Tascha Klees: Actually very deep thinking.
[18:59] PhoebeJoya Pearl: I am understanding your meaning Miss Yu, could illustration.
[18:59] Mengxia Yumako: By trying to remove all restraints, the Pit makes us less free.
[18:59] Mengxia Yumako: By giving us a framework in which to live, Aristasia makes us free.
[19:00] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Yes!
[19:01] Mengxia Yumako: Did all that make sense?
[19:01] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Yes Miss
[19:03] PhoebeJoya Pearl: where did the word guna come from?
[19:03] Mengxia Yumako: It is a Hindi word.
[19:04] Mengxia Yumako: I believe it means "multiply".
[19:04] PhoebeJoya Pearl: Thank you
[19:04] Mengxia Yumako: I think of the three gunas as "the three facets of the World"
[19:04] PhoebeJoya Pearl: listens
[19:05] Tascha Klees: Our next chapter is on the nature of femininity and the nature of beauty. I am really looking forward to discussing that with everybody.
[19:05] Mengxia Yumako: Because the three gunas are all present in the world at the same time.
[19:05] Mengxia Yumako: But we can look at them separately, too.
[19:10] Mengxia Yumako: I fear we may be winding down.
Sai Saraswati Public Library: Your on-the-ground library in Telluria.
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Mengxia Yu
Contributy supermaiden

Joined: 07 Feb 2008
Posts: 435
Location: Arkadya

PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the transcript from chapter four:

[18:15] Mengxia Yumako: This chapter is about BEAUTY!
[18:15] Sushuri Madonna: That is a nice subject!
[18:15] Tascha Klees: Just to let everyone know, Yu-chei and I met with Miss Pearl earlier on Chapter Four.
[18:16] Sushuri Madonna: Oh good.
[18:16] Sushuri Madonna: How did it go?
[18:16] Mengxia Yumako: So she does not have to stay up so super-late anymore.
[18:16] Mengxia Yumako: It went well.
[18:16] Sushuri Madonna: Good
[18:16] Sushuri Madonna: Yes it must be dreffly late for her
[18:16] Tascha Klees: We spoke in voice because we wouldn't have to put it on the Fora.
[18:16] Sushuri Madonna: In fact she was getting up in the middle of her night.
[18:17] Tascha Klees: It was just easier that way.
[18:17] Sushuri Madonna: yes.
[18:17] Tascha Klees: I think this is a beautiful chapter.
[18:17] Mengxia Yumako: Talking with Miss Pearl earlier reminded me of something I'd heard about "hard science" and beauty.
[18:17] Tascha Klees: I really enjoyed it.
[18:17] Sushuri Madonna: Oh I think so.
[18:17] Sushuri Madonna: Oh - what was that?
[18:18] Mengxia Yumako: When scientists first discovered the double-helix formation of DNA, they were not entirely sure that it really was a double-helix.
[18:18] Mengxia Yumako: I think they are still not quite positive.
[18:18] Mengxia Yumako: Without a doubt.
[18:18] Mengxia Yumako: But they decided that it just HAD to be a double-helix because that formation is so beautiful.
[18:20] Mengxia Yumako: How's that for the "scientific method"?
[18:20] Sushuri Madonna: Theconcept of "elegance" is not infrequently cited in theoretical physics.
[18:21] Mengxia Yumako: Yes.
[18:21] Tascha Klees: Also by mathematicians
[18:22] Tascha Klees: An elegant theorum.
[18:22] Sushuri Madonna: Yes.
[18:23] Jullianna Juliesse: I just love the idea of biological differenves between the male and female brains.
[18:23] Mengxia Yumako: Oh, yes!
[18:24] Sushuri Madonna: So beauty even while theoretically denied as a non-subjective entity continues to be a criterion.
[18:24] Sushuri Madonna: Yes - that is really beyond doubt.
[18:24] Tascha Klees: I think it is rather interesting that there are so many phyicists who are passionate about music.
[18:25] Sushuri Madonna: Even though it goes against so much modern thinking no one can deny it who know s anything about the subject at all.
[18:25] Mengxia Yumako: The part about the biological differences makes me think of an interesting example.
[18:25] Mengxia Yumako: A gonk I knew a few years ago.
[18:25] Mengxia Yumako: It claimed that it wanted to be a femin.
[18:25] Jullianna Juliesse: and. . .
[18:26] Mengxia Yumako: That doctors had diagnosed something wrong with its DNA, and that it was really wired to act like a femin.
[18:26] Mengxia Yumako: But it DIDN'T act like a femin.
[18:26] Mengxia Yumako: It dressed like one, but did not act feminine at all.
[18:26] Tascha Klees: Sorry what is a gonk?
[18:26] Mengxia Yumako: A mascul that pretends to be a femin.
[18:26] Tascha Klees: Oh thank you.
[18:26] Jullianna Juliesse: like Miss Joanne?
[18:27] Mengxia Yumako: Yes.
[18:27] Sushuri Madonna: I wonder why not - I mean in view or the DNA thing?
[18:27] Jullianna Juliesse: I was reading a piece on CNN
[18:28] Jullianna Juliesse: It had to do with the hormonal exposure a child received in utero
[18:28] Sushuri Madonna: Yes - that is very formative in brain development
[18:29] Jullianna Juliesse: Which dictates brain development.
[18:29] Sushuri Madonna: Brains are female unless they are affected by male hormones.
[18:29] Jullianna Juliesse: Yes.
[18:29] Sushuri Madonna: At that developmental stage.
[18:30] Jullianna Juliesse: And hormones act differntly onbrain development.
[18:30] Sushuri Madonna: It is possible to have a female brain in a non-female body - but I think it is rather rarer than some people are suggesting these days.
[18:30] Mengxia Yumako: Yes, I think so too.
[18:31] Tascha Klees: Do you think of your femininity as being part of your core essence? It is hard for me to imagine myself differently than I am. To think that could have all changed by my mother's hormonal surges in the womb.
[18:31] Mengxia Yumako: I think it is more than just hormones, but I think hormones help.
[18:31] Sushuri Madonna: I don't think we are accidents of biology.
[18:31] Mengxia Yumako: One can act effeminately, but still in accordance with one's body.
[18:31] Jullianna Juliesse: Yes.
[18:31] Mengxia Yumako: Or one can act like a mascul but try to change one's body to be feminine.
[18:31] Sushuri Madonna: I think the biology is just the material expression of what we are.
[18:32] Mengxia Yumako: The former is more natural.
[18:32] Mengxia Yumako: Hormones also explain how temperaments can actually be passed down biologically. To some extent.
[18:32] Tascha Klees: That is what good actors do in theatre.
[18:32] Jullianna Juliesse: I have two former co-workers, both are Transgender.
[18:32] Jullianna Juliesse: One is a woman who became a man, the other vice versa.
[18:33] Tascha Klees: Are they always transgender or just in their private time?
[18:33] Sushuri Madonna: I think in some cases it really does happen but that the social disruption of the Pit causes a lot of gender confusion.
[18:33] Mengxia Yumako: I think you are right, Madonna-chei.
[18:33] Jullianna Juliesse: Both are living fully in their chosen sex/gender. Ronit has had surgery though to become a mascule.
[18:34] Jullianna Juliesse: (Why I don't know. . .)
[18:34] Tascha Klees: I also think the pit creates a lot of hormal imbalance.
[18:34] Mengxia Yumako: I find it strange that masculi who take care of their appearances are automatically considered to be homosexual. Is that not strange?
[18:34] Sushuri Madonna: Well if he really IS a mascul that would make sense.
[18:34] Jullianna Juliesse: (nor do I want to know the logistics)
[18:35] Mengxia Yumako: Can a fellow not be well-groomed like a gentleman anymore?
[18:35] Sushuri Madonna: Heck no! But then I don't want to know anyone's private logistics!
[18:36] Jullianna Juliesse: I don't know. .. Ronit and her partner Tova were such a couple.
[18:36] Sushuri Madonna: That is very sad. I mean that a well-groomed gentleman is assumed to be homosexual.
[18:36] Jullianna Juliesse: They split up awhile after the whole thing.
[18:36] Sushuri Madonna: Oh that is sad
[18:37] Mengxia Yumako: Of course, there is nothing wrong with he is--but that can be a hard label to bear just for taking care of one's haircut and fingernails.
[18:37] Mengxia Yumako: *if he is
[18:37] Sushuri Madonna: But that is endemic in the Pit too - quite apart from the other thing.
[18:37] Sushuri Madonna: Serial monogamy, I mean.
[18:37] Jullianna Juliesse: Tova tried. . . she is a Gestalt therapist and tried to be accepting, but she really is into women.
[18:38] Mengxia Yumako: Perhaps the problem is that in the Pit, everyone is expected to act like a mascul.
[18:38] Mengxia Yumako: So those who are feminine, no matter what gender, feel like they have no place.
[18:38] Jullianna Juliesse: Yes, even girls.
[18:38] Jullianna Juliesse: Especially in business.
[18:38] Tascha Klees: The pit's definition of a mascul.
[18:38] Mengxia Yumako: The Pit's definition of a mascul: everyone!
[18:39] Tascha Klees: Well everyone is expected to adhere to that standard.
[18:39] Jullianna Juliesse: Rayati, Miss Ruger.
[18:39] Sushuri Madonna: Rayati Miss Ruger.
[18:39] Sylvia Ramer: Rayati Miss Klees
[18:39] Tascha Klees: Rayati Miss Ruger.
[18:39] Mengxia Yumako: Rayati, Miss Ruger!
[18:40] Sylvia Ramer: Rayati as well Miss Juliesse, Miss Yu and Miss Madonna
[18:40] Sylvia Ramer: /curtys
[18:40] Tascha Klees: Please have a seat Miss Ruger!
[18:41] Sylvia Ramer: Miss Yu is very radient this evening
[18:41] Mengxia Yumako: Thank you.
[18:42] Sushuri Madonna: Isn't she?
[18:43] Sylvia Ramer: How is everyone doing?
[18:43] Mengxia Yumako: I am getting better.
[18:43] Tascha Klees: Very well thank you.
[18:44] Mengxia Yumako: Earlier Miss Pearl was asking if the chapter is merely about external beauty, or if we can also apply these ideas to a person's internal beauty.
[18:45] Mengxia Yumako: And we were thinking that one naturally follows the other.
[18:46] Mengxia Yumako: A very kind person will appear beautiful to us no matter what her body actually looks like.
[18:46] Jullianna Juliesse: I do not think external beauty necessarily creates inner beauty.
[18:46] Tascha Klees: I must beg to leave for a few moments. I shall return shortly.
[18:46] Tascha Klees: Rayati
[18:46] Jullianna Juliesse: Rather the opposite.
[18:46] Mengxia Yumako: Of course, Miss Klees! Rayati!
[18:46] Jullianna Juliesse: Rayati.
[18:46] Mengxia Yumako: Yes, Jiejie, that is what we were saying.
[18:46] Jullianna Juliesse: Oh. . . silly Jiejie.
[18:47] Jullianna Juliesse: I am a scad tired.
[18:47] Sushuri Madonna: RAyati
[18:47] Sylvia Ramer: Rayati Miss Klees
[18:49] Sylvia Ramer: So, if I am following the discussion, Inner Beauty is true beauty and external beauty is only a manifestation of the inner beauty?
[18:50] Mengxia Yumako: I think that external beauty can exist by itself, but it is incomplete without inner beauty.
[18:50] Sushuri Madonna: Physical beauty is a physical reflection of the Absolute Beauty.
[18:51] Sushuri Madonna: Moral beauty is a moral reflection of it.
[18:51] Mengxia Yumako: I suppose there is a difference between attractiveness and actual beauty.
[18:51] Sushuri Madonna: Musical beauty is a musical reflection of it
[18:51] Jullianna Juliesse: But I have known some very beautiful maids who were really quite ugly indifr. . .
[18:51] Jullianna Juliesse: *inside
[18:51] Sylvia Ramer: at least in Telluria, External without internal leaves one rather empty
[18:51] Sushuri Madonna: Yes.
[18:52] Jullianna Juliesse: But people are drawn to them nonetheless.
[18:52] Sushuri Madonna: It only creates a superficial attraction.
[18:52] Mengxia Yumako: They are attractive, but not beautiful?
[18:52] Jullianna Juliesse: \Yes, it is the Pit. But it is so frustrating!
[18:52] Sylvia Ramer: yes, but usually not for very long or for non superfical reasons
[18:52] Sushuri Madonna: Well the bodily being may be beautiful.
[18:53] Sushuri Madonna: But a lot of beauty comes from what we do with that.
[18:53] Jullianna Juliesse: In the Pit, the bodily being's beauty is Paramount.
[18:54] Sushuri Madonna: Yes - but even so people soon tire of someone who is physically attractive but boring!
[18:54] Jullianna Juliesse: Which has always been frustrating to me.
[18:54] Sylvia Ramer: The Pitt is frustrating to those who are not in its embrace
[18:55] Mengxia Yumako: Stroo.
[18:55] Jullianna Juliesse: For me, personally, I have always been torn between expressing the beauty of myself or using the attractivenesss of my flavvie.
[18:56] Mengxia Yumako: I think that this chapter is also saying that there is nothing wrong with making one's flavvie pretty.
[18:56] Sushuri Madonna: Cannot the two be united?
[18:56] Jullianna Juliesse: I would like to think so, but my experience has not been that.
[18:57] Sushuri Madonna: I think it is saying one SHOULD make one's flavvie pretty - but that moral beauty is even more important.
[18:57] Jullianna Juliesse: For me, since I was very young, it has always been a line in the sand.
[18:57] Mengxia Yumako: Yes.
[18:57] Sylvia Ramer: Agreed. but not at the expense of the inner beauty, or to its exclusion
[18:58] Mengxia Yumako: If one's body is a temple of Dea, as the Bible says, one should not decorate the temple with linens with holes in them.
[18:58] Mengxia Yumako: So to speak.
[18:58] Jullianna Juliesse: I am very good at playing the other side of the game, but the inner part is more important.
[18:58] Sushuri Madonna: The two should go together
[18:58] Jullianna Juliesse: I cannot reconcile the two.
[18:59] Jullianna Juliesse: Or at least I have had trouble doing so.
[18:59] Niami Aeon is Online
[18:59] Mengxia Yumako: Does that analogy make sense?
[18:59] Sushuri Madonna: I wonder if the problem in the Pit lies in the inordinate s*xualization of human beauty
[18:59] Jullianna Juliesse: Yes, it does.
[18:59] Jullianna Juliesse: It does.
[18:59] Mengxia Yumako: I think it does.
[18:59] Mengxia Yumako: Thus all the anti-aging products.
[18:59] Sylvia Ramer: However if all one has is linens with holes, then isn't that more of dedication than the wealthy spending a paltry sum on a silk covering?
[19:00] Jullianna Juliesse: My old art teacher summed it up for me when I was very young.
[19:00] Niami Aeon is Offline
[19:00] Mengxia Yumako: If all one has is linens with holes, then that is fine!
[19:00] Sushuri Madonna: Oh yes - of course - but one should not choose linens with holes if one can afford better!
[19:01] Mengxia Yumako: But if one is able to reasonably afford a silk covering, one should not purposely get hole-y linens.
[19:01] Jullianna Juliesse: Oooh, good point!
[19:01] Mengxia Yumako: One need not spend extravagantly to look nice.
[19:01] Jullianna Juliesse: Not at all.
[19:01] Sushuri Madonna: Like bongos who buy their clothes ready-faded and torn.
[19:01] Mengxia Yumako: (But I have noticed that worn-out clothes with holes DO seem to be a fashion.)
[19:01] Mengxia Yumako: Yes, exactly, Madonna-chei!
[19:01] Jullianna Juliesse: Yes, that was a point in my exit project.
[19:02] Mengxia Yumako: Better to have one nice-looking blouse than ten with stains and holes in them.
[19:02] Sylvia Ramer: And a three or more times the sum of a new non-faded in tact pair of bloomers
[19:02] Sushuri Madonna: That was wonderful - honored Raya wanted me to tell you how impressed she was.
[19:03] Sushuri Madonna: She has not been very available recently owing to some difficulties.
[19:03] Sushuri Madonna: But she hopes you will finalize it.
[19:06] Jullianna Juliesse: My project?
[19:06] Sushuri Madonna: Yes.
[19:06] Mengxia Yumako: Oh--I thought it was good the way it is! Hee!
[19:06] Jullianna Juliesse: Oh, I am so thrilled!
[19:07] Sushuri Madonna: Oh I think it is too!
[19:07] Sushuri Madonna: But you said it was a draft.
[19:07] Jullianna Juliesse: I was being modest.
[19:07] Sushuri Madonna: Well I am sure it will stand as it is!
[19:08] Sushuri Madonna: If you have no changes you want to make.
[19:08] Jullianna Juliesse: But I reeeeallly focused my mental energy.
[19:08] Sushuri Madonna: How exciting.
[19:08] Jullianna Juliesse: I will look at it again.
[19:08] Jullianna Juliesse: What is left of my mental energy!
[19:08] Sushuri Madonna: We have three girls ready to be full scholars now, I think.
[19:08] Jullianna Juliesse: And two girls ready to be sworn sisters!
[19:08] Sylvia Ramer: That is great news
[19:09] Sushuri Madonna: I wonder if they can be scholarized on Sai Rayanna Day.
[19:09] Mengxia Yumako: That would be good!
[19:09] Sushuri Madonna: That would be so nice
[19:10] Sushuri Madonna: It falls on Rhavedi this year so we could do it on the actual day.
[19:10] Sushuri Madonna: (I think it does anyway)
[19:10] Mengxia Yumako: It does.
[19:11] Mengxia Yumako: It is on the school calendar.
[19:11] Sushuri Madonna: Hooray!
[19:14] Sushuri Madonna: I am happy to have more full scholars.
[19:15] Jullianna Juliesse: I am glad y'all want me.
Sai Saraswati Public Library: Your on-the-ground library in Telluria.
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